President Joe Biden doesn’t like a lot of things about guns. He castigates modern sporting rifles (MSRs), as “weapons of war.” He’s also pretty angry about privately made firearms PMFs – or those scary “ghost guns,” that have existed since before America was founded. Forget accessories. Standard capacity magazines completely creep him out.
None of that, though, makes him as angry as ammunition. President Biden really doesn’t like it at all. There’s no other way to explain why he and his administration are determined to tangle with ammunition.
The White House’s press people are denying it, but NSSF learned from Winchester Ammunition that they were being told that M855/SS109 ammunition sales to civilians from the Lake City, Mo., facility are on the chopping block. That would potentially choke off over 30 percent of the ammunition used on AR-15 style rifles by law-abiding citizens. It would also risk the jobs of up to 500 employees and the Defense Department’s ability to surge ammunition production during increased operational tempo periods.
The Lake City, Mo., ammunition production facility is operated under contract by Winchester Ammunition. Winchester sells excess ammunition produced during normal operations. That’s how they are able to sustain the workforce that surges capacity to the Defense Department during conflicts. Winchester would be forced to reduce that workforce if commercial sales of ammunition were halted, posing a serious risk for the ability of the production facility to fulfill its mission during a wartime footing.
Spiking Senate Talks
The timing of a potential policy couldn’t be more conspicuous. President Biden has been asked by the lead Democratic U.S. Senator to avoid interfering with delicate negotiations on legislation in response to the tragedy at Uvalde, Texas. Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) set aside his ideas of gun bans and raising the minimum age to legally purchase a long gun. Still, President Biden scoffed and publicly said the legislative framework didn’t go far enough. Sen John. Cornyn (R-Texas) left Washington, D.C., when negotiations over legislative text weren’t fruitful.
At the same time, The White House was quietly informing Winchester Ammunition that they were thinking about tinkering with “green-tip” ammunition sales. Again.
Tried and Failed
That’s because this isn’t the first time President Biden has attempted to end sales of surplus ammunition. The Obama-Biden administration attempted proposed regulations through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) to ban the sale of the popular ammunition in 2015. The administration attempted to revoke the “sporting purpose” exemption for the popular “green-tip” ammunition claiming it didn’t qualify for the exemption because it was “armor piercing ammunition” and that the ammunition was increasingly popular in AR-pistols.
This ammunition is by definition not “armor piercing ammunition” under the Gun Control Act. The exemption was never required in the first place and was sought (and granted) out of an over abundance of caution.
The ATF move in 2015 was, of course, playing fast-and-loose with scientific data. Hunting enthusiasts know that handguns are often built to accept rifle calibers and are used for sporting purposes. Guns owners were infuriated. Over 310,000 comments were submitted to the Federal Register on the ATF’s proposal. Members of Congress got involved when 238 U.S. Representatives signed a letter to the ATF over “serious concerns” over the proposed policy. Another 52 Senators signed on to their own letter.
The proposal, called “a backdoor way of trying to limit public access to the AR-15,” by Robert Cotroll, a law professor at George Washington University and expert on gun laws, was dropped. Until now, that is.
White House press officials told The Washington Examiner that no such proposal was ever considered. That’s hard to believe when Winchester Ammunition officials reached out to NSSF with concerns about this damaging proposal. The Biden administration doesn’t bear a lot of credibility when it comes to ammunition.
Zero Credibility
The president made the outlandish claim that there is no rational basis for 9mm handgun ammunition.
“The .22 caliber bullet will lodge in the lungs and we can get it out,” President Biden said on Memorial Day. “A 9mm bullet blows the lung out of the body. The idea of a high caliber weapon, there is simply no rational basis for it in terms of self-protection, hunting.”
Fox News reported that according to the ATF’s Annual Firearms Manufacturing & Export Report, pistols produced in 9mm comprised of approximately 56.8 percent of new pistols produced in 2019, making up about 42 percent of pistols produced between 2010 and 2020. It’s not just popular with civilian use for personal protection, it’s also a popular chambering for law enforcement.
The president’s 9mm claim was debunked as “bullsh*t,” by a federal agent with 15 years of service. Another with 20 years said, “Not possible.” A 21-year veteran of the U.S. Marshal fugitive recovery task force told Breitbart that President Biden’s claim is,”… not even in the realm of possibility.”
Target Hunting Ammo
The White House’s credibility on ammunition is further in tatters after it was unveiled that the administration is attempting a Faustian bargain for hunters. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) proposed a rule that would open hunting on 19 National Wildlife Refuges (NWRs) in exchange for a ban on traditional lead core ammunition.
The Proposed Rule is completely without scientific foundation and, in fact, comes on the heels of the anti-hunting group Center for Biological Diversity’s (CBD) petition calling for a Secretarial Order requiring the phaseout of traditional ammunition on the entire Refuge System and initiate formal rule making to phase out traditional ammunition by Sept. 30, 2024. CBD is also involved in a “sue and settle” scheme with USFWS. The anti-hunting group took USFWS to federal court in Montana seeking to ban traditional ammunition and USFWS immediately moved into settlement discussions that continue today.
The hostility the Biden administration holds against the firearm industry isn’t limited to firearms or even accessories. It can be measured 62 grains and one “green-tip” at a time.
Larry Keane is SVP for Government and Public Affairs, Assistant Secretary and General Counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation.
Sleepy Joe is being primed and run by the puppet masters of the Left.
Sleepy is the Number One useful idiot. There are many Number Two contenders, but none of them really challenge Number One.
Imagine his tombstone, “Most Useful Idiot”.
I think you essentially have the anti gun groups acting at policy think tanks, probably combined with the justice department, looking at “all the options” for any and all gun control. There isn’t any need for correlation to crime, just what things can the president and agencies unilaterally go after, those are easy pickings.
This was like the things Obama went after, import/export laws, blocking Garands from coming back from abroad, going after elderly veterans, trying to reduce FFLs, trying to have gun dealers and gun smiths submit to ITAR and other state department requirements and fees even if they weren’t exporting.
Operation Chokepoint as well.
Susan Rice is the main culprit.
Jim Crow Gun Control kkk nazi joe needs training wheels on his bicycle. C’Mon Man.
The term MSR is dumb. It’s not a sporting rifle, it’s the best self defence tool available. The term Sporting is the reason why we’ve lost so many of our rights. We should stop pandering to these leftists. They are designed to kill things but that’s not a bad thing depending on what’s being killed.
Ah but it is used for sporting purposes. 3gun,hunting, target shooting. Get it?
Aww c’m ONN man.. those rifles give a sporting chance to those owning them when “things go bump in the night” and they have a strong”felt need” to meet force with force.
Dopey Joey advocates pointing your twelve bore out the back door and randomly firing into the air when you hear those “bumps in the night”. How sporting of him. Personlly I much prefer a single projectile well aimed at the source of the “bump”, and using an MSR gives me a much improved chance to put that round, and any more I deem necessary, precisely where it is most needed.
“being told that M855/SS109 ammunition sales to civilians from the Lake City, Mo., facility are on the chopping block. That would potentially choke off over 30 percent of the ammunition used on AR-15 style rifles by law-abiding citizens. It would also risk the jobs of up to 500 employees“
That’s ridiculous hyperbole, Winchester will just produce more 55gr M193, they’re already producing and selling millions of rounds from the Lake City plant, in stock today.
“Winchester USA Lake City Rifle Ammunition .223 Rem 55gr FMJ 3240 fps 200/ct
Was: $147.99 Price: $114.99 ($0.57 / count) Save $33.00
Availability: IN STOCK
302 viewed in the last 2 weeks
Product Number: WNW223200”
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll
Minor, are you obtuse? He’s talking about future production and sales, not what’s already out the door.
“Minor, are you obtuse? He’s talking about future production and sales, not what’s already out the door.“
Gaddy, are you obtuse? He’s talking about 62 grain SS109, not every single 5.56/.223 round they manufacture.
The core quite literally of the matter is the body armor penetration potential of the steel/lead penetrator core of the M855 projectile.
The steel core penetrator is irrelevant when it comes to shooting at humans. The velocity of the round is enough to defeat any and all soft armor (which is what the police usually wear). The penetrator is designed for use against lightly armored vehicles. The M193 will also defeat soft armor, and probably some plate armor as well, but I am not versed on the latter armor). Biden isn’t trying to limit the supply of SS109 because it has a steel penetrator, but because he wants the availability of AR15 ammo (and increasing the cost of the other 70%).
Mark for the real quick 5.56 vs armor that is relevant, 193 out of 16-20 inch barrels (3000fps+generally) has been shown to perforate cheap steel armor (think darn near everything that is not a highcom nij certified plate) of most relevant weights (8 pounds per plate) but generally can be stopped by modern (last 6-8 years manufactured by reputable companies) cermaic and uhmwpe (spectra/dyneema) plates. SS109/855 tends to penetrate all but the most high end UHMWPE plates as well as some older or lower quality (think wish.com) ceramic plates but tends to be stopped by most current production ceramic plates from reputable companies (will post testing data with velocity as well as do periodic batch testing) and oddly enough many steel plates (tip gets pushed back into the lead core and increases surface area apparently). With all that said reduction of civilian supply at any level is a bad thing for consumers especially for large supply capacity.
Minor, I apologize, you’re not obtuse, merely ignorant. That’s excusable. I’m ignorant of how to prepare, I’m at a loss. What is real men don’t eat? I did try it once. It wasn’t bad. Anyway, almost all centerfire rifles will penetrate soft body armor. Green tip, or no. So. If you think law enforcement patrol officers are going to wear rifle rated vests you’re past obtuse and ignorant. You’re just plain stupid. However, all things considered, if I had to take a hit, I’ll take that M855 penatrator core you’re so scared of over a 30-30 150 soft point. It’s an ice pick. I’ve been to autopsies and skinned big game. AP over SP every day if I’m on the receiving end.
It will not be 30% of the supply of 5.56/.223, it will be a tiny fraction of the entire amount.
At this point we’re looking at one projectile from one factory, that will have almost no impact whatsoever on the market.
Of course, drama queens will be happy to have a blown out of proportion issue with which to get their panties in a wad, feel free to wring your hands and cry if it brings you joy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Thank you minor49IQ…All they need is your credit card number and they’ll ship it right to you…Now if you criminally misuse said ammunition a SWAT team will take you out…Do you still want to place your order? Or do you need more time to think about it?
I just want you to understand there are laws already in place for those who criminally misuse anything they can get their hands on. And that’s why running over the rights of the law abiding who do not criminally misuse firearms, bricks, bats, knives, vehicles, etc. is not nice…Don’t ya agree? Well do you?
in reality ANY round hitting ANY type of body protection wear is gonna make a hash of the poor sap wearing it. I cannot imagine the estreme debilitating PAIN I’d be feeling if even some old timer Fudd were to take aim with hisWinchester .30/30 lever action piece of antiquity and that round hit me in the chest wearing any sort of protection.
Yeah, the guy taking the hit wearing body armour might be patchable and maybe be back in the saddle for the next gun fight, but he’ll almost certainly become a non-combatant once struck with any round of any weight/calibre.
Dopey Joey’s plan is to limit the amount of ammo out here in civilian possession. He’s been trying to do that for a few decades now.. I’ve NO doubt he was pushing F & F under Eric and the Holding Company, with the kinyun’s assistance.
What I can’t quite cipher out is this: HOW is it that the PRESIDENT has the authority to make decisions on wht ammunition is produced/distrpbuted to where? His handlers are pulling his strings again. Or is that “still”?
You may want to check both combat footage and live tests of body armor. Momentum and impact energy do not translate the way you think…..well until you get to .50 bmg then it is pretty much exactly that way unless you have some not for civilian sale level plates and sucks to have to wear those.
MINOR Miner49er. More of your B/S? Let’s face fact, for about three PLUS years there was been a SHORTAGE of all kinds of ammunition, not just 5.56, or .223. Just because Winchester is producing more, does not mitigate the fact that if Lake cuts it’s production, it will cost about 500 jobs to the people who work there as well as drive up the cost of 5.56. You see, and I am sure you already know, when there is a lot of a commodity in the market that keeps the price DOWN. But you truly don’t want the price down. You want it as SKY HIGH as you can get it. You know you can’t stop people from buying firearms, but you are trying desperately to make it difficult as possible to buy ammunition.
“if Lake cuts it’s production, it will cost about 500 jobs to the people who work there as well as drive up the cost of 5.56“
No need to cut any jobs.
Winchester will just have those folks producing M193 55gr 5.56 for the civilian market. The M193 will sell just as well as the M855, and all those fine employees will continue to produce 5.56 for the civilian market.
Honestly, do you folks really think that the only 5.56 mm ammunition produced at Lake City is 62gr M855?
Or is it that difficult for you understand the difference between a single 62 grain 5.56 mm projectile and all other 5.56/.223 ammunition?
You do understand it is a historical fact that the AR 15/M 16 was developed for use with 55gr projectiles?
I find it difficult to believe that the details of this issue seem to escape most on this forum, truly amazing.
MINOR Minere49er, Nice try, but that is poppy cock. Winchester’s factory is not in the same place at Lake City, so those jobs will be GONE! There is absolutely NO REASON for Sleepy Joe to cut the manufacture of 5.56 except it is an effort to curtail the availability to people who own rifles which chamber the 5.56 round. Believe it or not, the AR-15 is NOT the only rifle that chambers 5.56.
Do you understand the DIFFERENCE between the .223 and the 5.56 mm? I don’t give a rat’s behind what the original round was when the AR-15 was originally manufactured.
Your position is UNTENABLE!
The secret service just ordered “mandatory heavy duty stabilizer training wheels” for Biden’s bicycle…..
https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Duty-Stabilizer-Bicycles-Original-Training/dp/B001BRE0G6
He just needs to take the toe clips off.
Sleepy Joe needs to resign. He is suffering from DEMENTIA!
The Winchester plant in Oxford, MS (which is not owned by .gov )also produces the dreaded .223, 5.56 ammo, as well as other Military/LE and civilian small arms ammo. That facility might be able to ramp up if the production at LC is restricted, unless Biden goes after all suppliers of his hated ammo.
“Restricting access to ammunition… “
It is dishonest to conflate all Winchester production of 5.56/.223 ammo when the story concerns a specific projectile, the M855 Steel/lead penetrator core.
“NSSF has been in contact with officials at Winchester Ammunition regarding the Biden administration’s consideration of halting sales of excess M855/SS109 ammunition,”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
gunny, you make a good point. There’s a Winchester ammunition production facility less than an hour drive from me. The problem is if Winchester has to convert production lines to fill that 30% gap it will be at the expense of other calibers that have been in short supply for too long. Of course, all of this is according to Biden’s puppeteers plans.
“also produces the dreaded .223, 5.56 ammo, as well as other Military/LE and civilian small arms ammo. That facility might be able to ramp up if the production at LC is restricted“
Lake City will still be producing 5.56/.223 ammunition, millions of rounds per year.
It is dishonest to continue to conflate the M8556 projectile with all 5.56/.223 ammunition.
I once thought that conservatives would conduct their conversations with intellectual integrity, it is sad to see them stoop to such juvenile semantics games in order to push their false narrative.
Restricting access to ammunition is nothing new. If Slow Joe can pull it off it will reduce supply and drive prices up. At least for that particular caliber. De Facto gun control and no having to deal with Congress and those pesky courts. Kinda reminds me of his strategy for forcing us into electric cars. I’ll explain for Minor. After all, he appears to be obtuse. I filled up my full sized Chevy truck this morning.
ouch. with zero miles to empty, the work truck took 35gal’s diesel. math is hard, round these parts that’s a couple bills.
Reload.
If TTAG wants to moderate comments, why don’t they do something about PaulaFox and her ilk?
She generates clicks which pays the bills.
“…there is simply no rational basis for it in terms of self-protection…”
wait, i don’t want to blow an attacker’s lung out?
Much easier to blow out the brain with a headshot.
Well I knew it, theBiden cant take away the right to be armed but he can sure take away our emu. The future for gunms is expensive paperweights. For sure “I’ve got 20million rounds.” Then when you go shootzing you’ve now got 19million rounds and that cant be replaced. Also the no lead emu on public land is just going to put lead bearing emu into the category of non sporting emu and you’ll have to get a background check to purchase it, until all of that to is gone.
It’s just a plan to disarm We The People. And why is a lot of nations on board with disarming its people, well theres a bad moon rising and they dont want gunms at the grocery store.
Absurdity, metaphor, and flightless birds combined for a rather astute big picture look. You will be spared the F-150, can’t speak for the ram.
A couple of years ago I stumbled across a good deal on a large quantity of 5.56 surplus ammo. Ammo cans included. So, we are in good shape on our supplies for the next few years. Hopefully, we will be able to get a somewhat conservative President in 2024. And hopefully we can elect a few more congress critters and Senators with a little actual common sense. Because if things continue along the same direction it has the last couple decades much longer, there will either be a Civil War, or the US will cease to exist as a free country.
It better not be merely ‘hopefully’, it better be dutifully, purposefully, and successfully taking back Congress and the Senate this November. 2024 is way too far away to contemplate anything of value at this point. November is far more critical. We don’t take that back it’s pretty much over for your freedoms and certainly your firearms.
As far as ‘civil war’, That’s one of their ancillary options for their agenda, which is simply the Marxist take-over formula that if we don’t get what ‘we’ want, nobody gets anything. That’s why they are fomenting racism as a potential catalyst. They want to keep people riled up against each other into the elections. Declaring a nationwide emergency and Martial law would certainly put their disarmament agenda on steroids. Nobody gets to have guns when ‘white supremacists are battling Antifa/BLM while everybody else becomes a ‘domestic terrorist’ and organized criminal looting and anarchy is everywhere else.
Never forget that the entity that has taken over our political system is not your grandpappy’s old Democratic party. This is now an obsessive psychotic Marxist ideology with severe nihilist tendencies.
Everybody’s stuck on ‘ammo’ shortage and armor piercing bullshit (mind-controlling you!) when that will actually mean nothing or little when they begin their ‘Force Recon’ confiscations.
Don’t any of you armchair rangers and couch potato commandos realize that ‘They’ know too well that over a 100 million well armed citizens would create a serious problem for facilitated totalitarian ambitions so they have ‘other proven strategies’ other than just making laws that not many will comply with and trying to undermine your guaranteed rights with commerce restrictions affecting supplies?
Start looking at stuff like your county’s build up of illegal surveilance operations supported by the G with federal grants–like the one they’re giving for depriving you of due process with criminal Red Flag laws.
Most of you won’t believe the kind of ‘back door’ tactics being set up up right now to prepare for “100 million well armed and fed up citizens” who finally have had enough. Someone showed me a map on a website last winter of the level of County Sherrif’s ‘apparatus’ for quick response tactical take down of potential designated terrorists. It all begins with knowing exactly what you have and where you live and store your shit. Then they deploy the ‘special’ equipment teams
And a ‘special’ tactic with origins in the Viet Nam operation Pheonix war using drones instead of choppers for quick take down of small unit organization. 100 million armed citizens can’t do shit without heavy organization, coordination, and communications not under surveillance monitoring. otherwise It’ll be like shooting the proverbial fish in a barrel. They come in and take out any smell or hint of organized resistance before it even has a chance to get started.
Check out the number of Counties in your state that have Drones. ( and while you’re at it, check for ALPR, Stingray cell phone monitors, Geo-Fence predictive crime analysis, facial recognition, paid snitches, (every single organization from unions, to religious groups to clubs and everything else are infiltrated by government informants or agents) and etc.)
These are REAL drones, not these toys they sell for advanced selfies. Ones that can be outfitted with everything from FLIR to grenades to firearms. I asked our county Sherrif why they need a drone that costs 60k? He said to catch drunk drivers who jump out of their cars and run into the woods, and to search for children who get lost in the woods. There were maybe two kids that got lost in my state to prompt a search in recent years.
Oh, I said. So those highly trained dogs you guys have and were bragging about at the county fair a couple years ago who could take one sniff of a car seat or child’s clothes and bolt off into the forest deep to find the subject in a few minutes is obsolete? He smirked and said ‘oh no, we stilll use them for hitting on drugs in cars…”
So instead of stupid debates about ammo manufacturing, start pulling your minds back on a real issue of illegal intrusive agenda-based surveillance and rights-violating documenting of all the property possessions, movements, and communications of Private American Citizens.
Marxist are also skilled and psychological warfare and disinformation. Especially when they have the MSM on their side.
Well damn quiet part out loud why don’t you.
“Marxist are also skilled and psychological warfare and disinformation”
No doubt, I think your rant above proves that.
Dang Possum, yer bummin me out. I’m gonna go punish some paper tomorrow and then weld my 1911 to a rebar and grind the grip to make an axe. If I grind off the serial number will it be a ghost garden tool?
Meatcleaver
The title for this article would have been more accurate if it had been this…
The Latest Target in the Biden Administration’s War on Americans; Gun Owners and AR-15 Ammunition.
I know we are focused on the Second Amendment and guns…. but Biden and his democrats are really waging war on all Americans as there is a broad number of rights being attacked by them and most are not even aware of it.
For example, Red Flag laws deprive one of due process and allow for confiscation of ALL property involved in the Red Flag confiscation qualifying factor and not just guns – an innocent person falsely accused or even thought in some way to qualify, even accused by some random person, under some qualifying factor can be, at a minimum, taken from their home, confined for mental health treatment/observation, have their property confiscated (in some cases by force), and be held in some sort of confinement – with zero due process and no return of the property taken. Nationwide, collectively in all democrat states there were over 3, 437 (only one involved a gun) such events in 2022 and more than that since. And there are events like that every year – people falsely accused or thought by police, with no actual justification at all and using a law or legal precedent or concept of some sort with red flag law consequences, confining them and taking their property without warrant or court order or due process or justification – every one of these American citizens had their rights under the Constitution completely trampled on and infringed, in some cases with injury causing force and at gun point of police, and were confined and had their property seized. Red Flag type laws already exist in all 50 states, they are not all called or termed Red Flag laws but they have the same effect with applied. Oh by the way, those 3, 437, only one had a gun and it was a Daisy BB gun.
Just remember, all you gun-control fanatics think these Red Flag laws would only apply to those with guns. That’s not true, when a law exists its concept and precedent applies to ALL and its only a matter of applying it. Such laws can be applied to you too even if you are falsely accused and do not have a gun. So maybe its time gun owners start targeting anti-gun people maybe ‘very anonymously’ or with ‘I thought’ falsely accusing them of such heinous acts as they overall falsely accuse us of being responsible for, ya know, so that police come armed with guns to their homes and take them and their property, trash their homes, terrorize their families, and cause them to loose their jobs (in some cases) – with no due process or blatant violation of their rights – and start giving them a taste of what its going to be like.
History shows us that such law concepts like ‘Red Flag’ concepts are blatantly and deliberately misapplied over 90% more than they are applied correctly.
In 100% of all cases since our country was founded and the Bill of rights enacted, any time there has been an enumerated or other constitutional right subjected to any form of government control or management or oversight or infringement or application 100% of the time it was abused to achieve the goals of ‘special interest’ either in government or external to government and wielded as a ‘weapon’ against the American people.
Sleepyjoe wants our guns. Then again, per his son, old Joe keeps 5 in his home.👎