By Lee Williams of The Second Amendment Foundation‘s Investigative Journalism Project. Find Lee’s Substack HERE:
The ATF has beclowned itself yet again.
Last month, when the agency sent Special Agents Larry, Moe and Shemp to the home of a law-abiding Delaware gun owner, without a search warrant, with orders to inspect his guns without letting constitutional rights get in their way, they should have been prepared for some blowback.
We certainly were when we broke the story. However, no one could have predicted the magnitude of the boom, because the entire “voluntary interview” as ATF later called it, was captured on video.
Now, the whole country is talking about ATF’s surprise raid, what it says about the agency and the constitutional violations that were aplenty. Once again, ATF has become a laughingstock – the butt of a hundred jokes. Once again, the agency has resecured its position as the pariah of federal law enforcement.
The post-raid chatter got so loud, ATF’s newly minted director, Steve Dettelbach, had to try to salvage at least a small piece of his new agency’s tarnished reputation. After all, he started on the very day los tres idiotas were begging and pleading for just a peek at a serial number or two.
Dettelbach had to reassure Joe, Kamala, Gabby and the others who put him in charge, that he was a real leader. He had to tamp down the laughter and stop the chatter. So, what did he do? He sent in the pamphleteers, of course.
Dettelbach chose a Virginia gun show as the site for his first ever public relations campaign. He issued seven-year-old flyers titled “ATF Myths – Not everything you hear is true” to a team of handpicked staffers, whom he ordered to circulate and make nice-nice with the gun owners attending the show.
To be clear, ATF’s flyers are chock-full of lies and half-truths. NRA already published a vicious point-by-point analysis of their content, which they called “Busting ATF’s ‘Myth’-Busting.” The piece is about as subtle as a sucking chest wound, and it shoots Dettelbach’s PR campaign down in flames.
My question to Dettelbach, should he ever learn how to pick up a phone and return a call, is why pamphlets? Did he not want to reach more than 50 people?
The first American newspaper, Publick Occurrences Both Forreign and Domestick, was published in 1690, and we’ve been mass communicating ever since. If he is really interested in discussing what happened, all he has to do is call. The word will certainly get out.
The conduct of Dettelbach’s agents raises serious questions and concerns: Are these warrantless home invasions going to continue? What are the agents’ rules of conduct? What happens if a home owner refuses to comply? And why isn’t anyone willing to talk about them – what are they hiding? These questions need to be answered before someone gets hurt.
You can tell a lot about a leader based on how they react when their people screw up – especially if they make national news. Right now, all we’re getting from ATF’s newest director are dusty handbills and unreturned phone calls.
Dettelbach owes the public answers. He works for us, after all. He may be a good leader. ATF could certainly use one. Unfortunately, right now it appears he is more interested in shielding his agents from public scrutiny, rather than the unconstitutionality of their actions, or our right to feel secure in our homes.
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A bunch of scorpions passing out pamphlets titled “Scorpion Myths” to unsuspecting frogs.
Walnut-sized brains with badges and guns. Around the ATF never relax.
The promise of pensions is a powerful thing.
enforcement branch types are usually drawn from the bottom of the barrel….
If they violate the law treat them as criminals and if they try to come into your home invoke make my day or castle domain and show them how well you can use your firearms. They are nothing but lawless gestapos and should be treated as such. Fight, don’t give in. There are far more of us than them and we should make them pay the price for their lawlessness.
Gov’t never ever apologizes. It just becomes silent hoping whatever just goes away, and it does. Voters and animated groups have about a 45-90 day memory span and then they become silent or just disappear. Just watch the next election. Big sensationalized mostly false news against opponents is timed for release to influence the election without time to allow facts to interfere.
I don’t think arming teachers is a good idea.
WE NEED TO ARM THE CHILDREN
This is why we need to arm students. The only thing that can stop a bad teacher with a gun is a good student with a gun
I started letting my son carry a knife to school when he was 10. When he got to high school, I gave him a S&W 43c .22lr j-frame. Once he got his driver’s license, I let him carry a p365. He prefers the 12-rd mag with a spare 15-rd. He knows the school is a non-permissive environment, so concealed means concealed. He worked out a strategy with an attorney for a plan if he gets caught by the school. I feel much better knowing my child has 28 rounds of +P Speer gold dot on him at his “diverse and vibrant” public school.
In our house, we believe in freedom. We live it. In my state, someone can carry on their 18th birthday. Doesn’t it make sense to have them learn to do it at home? In a safe environment? If you trust your 16 year old to drive a 7000lb SUV, but not to carry- you are delusional and anti-gun.
-stop calling people that believe in the drafters of the Bill of Rights (not the constitution, which replaced the very good Articles of Confederation) racists
-stop calling me a democrat because I don’t support the gun control laws you want (restricting children from concealed carrying)
-most teachers are fat LGBT+ groomers; arming them is dumb. They will shoot your white Christian son for “hate speech”
-arm the children. If they are old enough to have babies, they are old enough to carry. If they are old enough to drive, they are old enough to carry.
-if you do not support allowing children to carry, you are promoting gun control.
-I am not a troll, I am just probably more right wing and more pro freedom than you if you don’t like what I’m saying. If I offend you, go move to Canada or California with your they/them life partner.
Interesting idea. I have another.
How about we just disband public schools and let families determine how their children will be educated. It’s easier and will save a lot of grief.
So rather than let children carry guns- you would rather promote gun control? Let the children carry.
I can’t afford private school ($10k per kid per year) in my area.
I didn’t say the children couldn’t carry guns. If they’re being homeschooled who cares if they carry?? I said disband public schools; these institutions are little more than communist concentration camps. If you can’t educate your own children, that’s on you, not the rest of us.
If you can’t feed ’em, don’t breed ’em.
I totally support going back to the days of 1960 and before. When teenagers who were trained and raised with morality, by their two parents. With their parents expectations that the children would behave and control themselves in public.
I have no problem whatsoever with those children carrying guns. They have done so for hundreds of years in America’s history. And there’s no reason why they can’t go back to doing that again.
With the guidance, morality, and instruction by their parents.
I seem to recall seeing this before. Why the cut and paste? We read it the first time.
“Children” would be a misnomer in your scenario. If a youth is at an age in which he/she can carry responsibly and act like an adult, then it may be more accurate to use the term “young man/woman”.
I do not advocate for children carrying gunns. I advocate for sound training to build up youths into responsible young men & women.
I have met 16-yr-olds who are exponentially more responsible, mature, and reliable than many 40-somethings I also know. Raise the bar of expectation high, and many will willingly rise to meet it.
Hell, I am willing to accept your right to stay in our community, you and any partners do not have to leave, just keep what goes on behind closed doors right there and not in everyone’s face.
You need to try harder. This troll comes across as if you put a lot of thought into it. It’s not even entertaining. Do better.
To be honest, I call bullshit, I don’t believe a fucking word you’ve printed since you started this bullshit line of “reason?”. No one in their right mind would put their child in jeopardy of being charged with a felony weapons possession by sending them to SHOOL armed with a knife OR a gun and get your story straight is it your son with a knife and daughter with the gun or do they both carry a gun AND a knife, or do they actually carry nothing OR do they only exist in your mind?
Take your gun control BS elsewhere, you democrat.
In my state, California- a minor carrying concealed is, in absence of any other crime, a misdemeanor that is expunged on 18th birthday. But hey, I believe in freedom. You believe in gun control.
I am not a troll. I just believe in the 2A more than you. Do you think we should restrict machine guns? Do you like the NFA?
My grandfather brought a rifle to school to go hunting after school. (This was in West Virginia). They also said the Lord’s Prayer in public school. They stopped in 1962.
Stop putting my children in danger with your GUN CONTROL. I don’t want you or the government telling me how to parent my kids.
“I believe in 2A, but…”
Even if this is a troll, then this
-amazing
-and 100% right
This forum did support an 11yo girl open carrying, so WTF are you getting all weird about his son packing a 22 lr centennial at High school?
#armstudents
This forum did support an 11yo girl open carrying,
An 11 year old girl open carrying at a range or whatever while being supervised is far different than a kid carrying a concealed firearm in a school where it is a FELONY for ANYONE (other than LE or trained guards) to enter with a gun concealed or not. Why would you put your kid in a situation where he/she could possibly lose their right to own a gun for the rest of their life? Adults have a difficult time constantly concealing a gun without the occasional “inadvertent flash” so how can you expect a kid to get through a seven/eight hour day five days a week in “SCHOOL” without “showing” sometime. It has nothing to do with whether or not a kid can be trusted with a gun, I was squirrel hunting on my own at 9/10 years old with a single shot .22 but I didn’t take it to school, though later in High School the parking lot was full of pick-up trucks with back window gun racks loaded with various rifles and shot guns (a way different time with very different laws and mentality) but nobody carried in the school.
You calling me names does not make you anymore right. I went to school in Ky and we said the Lords Prayer and The Pledge of Allegiance every fucking day right up to my graduation in 1967. If you think your kid will only be charged with a misdemeanor for carrying a concealed weapon in a fucking SCHOOL you are delusional and if you think the kids age protects him/her you must not be aware of “tried as an adult” laws. So basically, it’s your kid do what you want but before you carry on with your stupid fucking personal attacks know who you are talking to. You think you are Pro 2A? That don’t mean shit to the school board, the cops, the DA and the state. Unfortunately, you are allowed to be as fucking stupid as you want to be so rock on rocker just glad you are where you are and not where I am.
I live in CA. And the crime of carrying on school grounds is a felony. I don’t believe your story. I was born in WV and currently live in CA. You sound like a troll that has read my comments and now use them in your own bs. Some of your comments have included ‘race war’ bs.
I think you’re an anti gun troll trying to make us look bad.
Again- carrying concealed in CA without a LTC in a misdemeanor.
Why does everyone on this comment section call anyone who is more right wing than them or more pro-2A than them a troll?
There are a lot of people who carry every day without a permit because they believe in the 2A. I carried every day without a permit in San Mateo county because it was “may-issue” here. I support my children to do the same in high school. You all supported:
https://dev.thetruthaboutguns.com/11-year-old-girl-brings-her-ar-15-to-idaho-statehouse-for-hearing-internet-melts-down
So why are you getting all Brady bunch on me? Even if it is a felony, and you going to side with the anti-gun Hilary Clinton gun grabbers?
Yeah, you did. You don’t deserve to own guns if you are you try to criticize other people for exercising their 2A rights.
Shame on you.
Again- carrying concealed in CA without a LTC in a misdemeanor.
Why does everyone on this comment section call anyone who is more right wing than them or more pro-2A than them a troll?
There are a lot of people who carry every day without a permit because they believe in the 2A. I carried every day without a permit in San Mateo county because it was “may-issue” here. I support my children to do the same in high school. You all supported:
https://dev.thetruthaboutguns.com/11-year-old-girl-brings-her-ar-15-to-idaho-statehouse-for-hearing-internet-melts-down
So why are you getting all Brady bunch on me? Even if it is a felony, and you going to side with the anti-gun Hilary Clinton gun grabbers?
Yeah, you did. You don’t deserve to own guns if you are you try to criticize other people for exercising their 2A rights.
Shame on you. You are democrats. You need to pray and fast for forgiveness. You need to watch less TV.
Let me help you out here, you can teach your kid the responsible use of guns, you can let your kid carry a gun anywhere on the planet that it is LEGAL to carry a gun as long as YOU are prepared to explain to him/her how YOU fucked up when he/she is caught underage in possession of a concealed firearm without a permit. Further YOU can send YOUR kid to school with a concealed firearm in DIRECT violation of Federal and state laws, but YOU must be prepared to face the consequences of ruining your kid’s life to make a point (regardless of any “contingency” agreements your KID has made with HIS? attorney. How many 16 year olds have their own lawyer?) Point is it’s the United States of America and YOU have the right to be as fucking stupid as YOU want to be, it is a shame however that you would jeopardize your son’s freedom to satisfy your own ignorance of the law. There is a DIFFERENCE between carrying concealed in public and carrying concealed (or open carry) in a fucking school.
CA.
Penal Code 626.9 PC is California’s Gun-Free School Zone Act. This statute prohibits a person from possessing or discharging a firearm in a school zone. An area is considered a school zone if it is within 1,000 feet of public or private school grounds.
The penalties for violating this law are severe and include substantial prison time independent of the penalties you face for simultaneously violating any of the other California gun laws.
West VA
§61-7-11a. Possessing deadly weapons on premises of educational facilities; reports by school principals; suspension of driver’s license; possessing deadly weapons on premises housing courts of law and family law courts.
3) A person violating this subsection is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be imprisoned in a state correctional facility for a definite term of years of not less than two years nor more than 10 years, or fined not more than $5,000, or both fined and imprisoned.
FYI: per your “only a misdemeanor in CA”.
Under Penal Code 25400 PC, California law makes it a crime to carry a concealed firearm on your person or in a vehicle. As a misdemeanor, the charge carries a penalty of up to 1 year in jail. If charged as a felony (loaded gun), the sentence is up to 3 years in jail.
“What happens if a home owner refuses to comply? ”
No warrant, then nothing happens legally.
I’ll tell you what one of the local ATF agents who uses one of our local ranges told me: You are under no legal obligation to show or provide the ATF your lawfully purchased/possessed firearms unless they have a warrant. However, if you do show/provide them the firearm its the same (basically) as surrendering the firearm to them because they can take it from you for ‘inspection’ (which is not going to happen any time soon).
So no warrant, don’t show them anything and tell them to leave.
Then you get Randy Weaver’ed or Waco’ed.
This is why I let my high schooler carry at school.
We believe in Freedom. We live it. I let my middle schooler carry a Smith and Wesson 43c when we are out in public together. I am teaching her early!
You’re not that good at this.
I agree. big(smile)
Pension chaser or farm laborer?
If the ATF does not have a warrant; It is not a violation of law to just say “No” to the ATF and refuse to provide them anything. Its not a violation of law to demand (verbally) they leave your property. It is not a violation of law to not open your door to them. It is not a violation of law to not recognize them as law enforcement.
It is however allowed in law for you to fear for your safety or life if they are armed and are not leaving your property and do not have a warrant. Make sure you tell the 911 operator in this case you fear for your safety (or life if you do) and need police immediately to remove armed intruders from your property. Record everything, video and audio, stream as it happens if possible.
This is really not a new thing,, its been going on like this since late 2000. These thigs have actually tired to open doors after being told no by trying the door to see if it was really locked.
If they do not stop someone is going to get hurt or killed.
Correction:
“thigs” should have been ‘thugs’
Actually more like Jack Booted Thugs. The whole point of that exercise was achieved. Do you think they don’t know who has a ring door bell camera? Here’s a clue, Ring will share your footage with LE without your knowledge or permission so you can bet that if ATF gives them a list and asks if any of these have a functioning camera they will provide the information. This is why it is so dangerous to allow ATF to have any kind of database.
I thought that was a portmanteau for “thuggish pigs”.
I stood what you meant.
Un-welcomed people on the property are intruders upon the property, not home intruders as in a home invasion until they try to enter.
This board will happily snitch on people for letting their kids carry at high school at age 17.
Shame on you boomer anti gun fats!
Everyone in this farce of an administration makes the same mistake…….assuming they’re SO much smarter than everyone else! We know what they’re doing and no amount of spinning is gonna change our minds.
“Dettelbach owes the public answers. He works for us, after all.”
Ha ha. That was funny.
The author of that statement clearly does not understand the mindset of government employees/politicians, especially high-level government employees/politicians.
Here is a far more accurate description of the mindset of government employees/politicians (especially at the highest levels):
They owe the public nothing.
They owe their boss, their campaign donors, and their political party.
They do not work for the public.
They work for themselves, their boss, their campaign donors, and their political party.
Once you fully understand the mindset of government employees/politicians, their actions make a lot more sense and you realize that their actions are intentional rather than uninformed or accidental.
You have to pity F-Troop, NOT! They are shunned inbred cousins of the federal agencies with only the TSA to look down on.
Meh, I just politely ask them to leave and close the door if they decline, I call the County Sheriff and have them removed. Fortunately, I live in a VERY gun friendly County with a Sheriff who is a firm believer in our Constitutional rights/protections. They WILL leave or they WILL go to jail or at least be escorted off my property while being schooled on exactly why they cannot legally go around harassing American citizens. To be honest I don’t think they will try that crap anywhere South of the Mason Dixon a lot safer among the Blue State Sheeple.
don’t open the door.
Can someone explain what the feds see when you get a background check? I didn’t realize the firearms you purchased were tied to it. I thought that was private information. In other words, if I get one background check for the purchase of four firearms, I didn’t realize they knew how many firearms were tied to that background check. Do they also know the make and models purchased?? Do they see everything except the serial number? Does it matter if the background check form is paper or electronic?
They get ALL of the information on the 3310.4 (multiple sales of firearms) INCLUDING the serial numbers.
Good to know, thanks. So, only buy one at a time, spaced at least seven days apart in order to stay off their lists. I’ve only had one multiple purchase, and one was a .22lr which they never seem concerned about.
Actually, page two of 4473 provides space for listing up to four firearms including serial numbers, but multiple purchases must also be documented on the 3310.4… In other words, buy a gun fill out the form (firearm information added by FFL) wind up on the ATF “non-registry” no matter if you buy one or ten.
It’s on page one now–remember that they revised it so they could more easily take pictures of the serial numbers? Section A has lines for up to 3 firearms. If you purchase more than 3 in a single transaction, the FFL must complete and attach Form 5300.9A Continuation Sheet to list the rest of them.
Depends which feds you are talking about. The ATF doesn’t get (not supposed to get) anything until the FFL closes up shop and turns over his records (required to be kept for 20 years of transactions) to the ATF for microfilming. The ATF is precluded from law from creating a computer database of those records, but the point may be moot. Many are moving to computer 4473s, and when the records are turned over, they are already computerized.
The FBI gets the 4473. It runs your background check based on the identifying information in the form, which may or may not include your social security number. (The form has a place for it but you are not required to provide it). The FBI is supposed to destroy the record of that check after a specified period of time (24 hours?). It is not supposed to retain the information as to the firearms purchased at all. It is not allowed to create a firearms registry. Even if it did, if it was anything like the California computer registry, it would be full of errors, duplicate entries, and entries for firearms that have been sold to others. It is so bad that it cannot form the basis for a declaration of probable cause to believe that you possess specified firearms.
I am pretty sure that they have the records, but can not use them as evidence of a crime. Any data bases they have are for info, not for evidence. They will just say they “got a tip” from an unnamed citizen and followed up on it.
Yes, I meant the ATF, as in how to avoid being on a visit someday list. I understand I can tell them to get lost. I just don’t want to be on any special lists.
Wonder how many FOIA requests are being ignored over this.
All of them.
#FukATF they better have awarrant or GTFO my property.. He boughtt he gunbs legally and doesn’t have to show them shit.. ATF is the new Gestapo.. #resist
Fuxx this comment section for opposing me giving my son a P365 to carry at his high school.
Good for a laugh ATF
No warrant, no looky. Be polite. Don’t answer questions. Tell them to leave your property or you will call the Sheriff.
Perhaps, just perhaps, it might be a good idea to call the local sheriff as soon as those wanting entry are recognized. Tell the 911/sheriff dispatcher a bunch of armed men are at your door wanting entry and you fear for your life and others present.
The ATF interaction should be handled the same way as a police non-warranted request to enter – a locked door and a stern refusal.
Now would be a good time for all to review the YouTube video by a lawyer on how to talk with law enforcement.
The FIRST lesson: they are NOT your new best friend.
” Are these warrantless home invasions going to continue?”
I really want to see more people call 911 on the strange men who don’t seem to be from around here claiming to be police and demanding firearms.
What home invasion? Not one of the officers entered the house, and as any other LEO, postman, salesman, poll taker etc., they violate no law by knocking on the door and asking questions. Police do this all the time when investigating a crime. You are not required to answer. They can ask to see your guns, and if you consent, there is no unlawful search. You are not required to consent. You can ask them to leave if they do not have a warrant. So other than looking like shit showing up in jeans and tee shirts with all of their tactical gear, these guys didn’t do anything that violated anyone’s civil rights. They knew they did not have probable cause to believe a crime had or may have been committed (straw sale).
The thing that bothered me was not the ATF officers showing up, it is that they knew about the multiple gun purchases in the first place. Who gave then that information and why? Yes, the FBI got that information with the 4473, but what authorized them to give a copy of the guns purchased to the ATF?
Three years ago I had a policeman come to my front door. He asked if he could come in. I Politely said no. I stepped outside to speak to him on the front porch. Never let the cops in your home without a warrant. But always be polite.
Mark N, who okayed NastyPee to fly into Taiwan…GFY China, go ahead, I double dog dare ya!!! Badges, we don’t need no steenkin badges.
This administration and it’s appointed czars do as they frickin well please, constitution be damned. They are showing so much abject smugness that I suspect that they KNOW they have the mid-terms in the bag… “We cheated fair n square”, see ya in two more years if we still exist”.
China does not have gay pride parades.
China has free speech. You are not allowed to critique the government. You can say, “I don’t like homosexuality promoted to children.” You will lose your job in America for that.
China does not start wars. We invaded Iraq an and Afghanistan. We also lost both wars. Saudi/Mossad did 9/11.
America turns away from God. We ban guns here. We deserve His wrath.
If you can’t criticize the government, then you do not have freedom of speech.
If China doesn’t start wars, then what did they try and lose decades ago in Vietnam? What is their military doing in Ladakh now?
Try that propaganda elsewhere, wumao.
Much truth in what you said, except free speech in china is only if you’re saying what they agree with, much like like the way it has become in many places here.
Just my two cents.
I find an unsettling need to kick the crying butt-hurts in the jewels on this. The ATF agents are NOTHING BUT COPS. They didn’t have a warrant and all their BS aside, all they did was a knock and talk and the DB owner buckled and complied. They didn’t have a warrant and didn’t need a warrant if the gutless resident lays down for them. The point that if you comply, we “didn’t need to come back” causes me to explain loudly, WHO CARES HOW MANY TIMES YOU HAVE TO COME BACK?
He should have told them all to fuck off and to get off his property and shut the door.
Grow some balls and quit crying because the cops made you look like a compliant fool. The home owner owns this one. I don’t have a shred of sympathy for him.
have you seen the video of what happened to one of their agents when the homeowner called the cops?…too funny!….this appears to be some sort of attempt to curb straw-purchasing…albeit, clumsily….
Hey, get it right. It’s Curly, Larry, and Mo.
Hey, get it right. It’s Curly, Larry, and Mo.
No, it was actually Mo, Larry and Curly…
Your comment is awaiting moderation
Moe.
And don’t forget Shemp, and Joe. On second thought, maybe you can forget them.
Your comment is awaiting moderation
There were several “stooges” throughout their Vaudeville years but they are only remembered for the time they were on TV. Shemp and Curly were actually Moe’s brothers with Curly replacing Shemp when he went on to pursue a solo career. There was also a “fake” Shemp.
Gotta know there is something fundamentally wrong with your fucking “algorithm” when a simple post about an old comedy team gets “moderated”.
Somehow I doubt that there’s a lot of people at gun shows who will fall for this.
My question to Dettelbach, should he ever learn how to pick up a phone and return a call, is why pamphlets? Did he not want to reach more than 50 people?
cookie clicker
Why would the agent nedd a searech warrant? They made it clear in the video that co-operation was voluntary and explained exactly what they were doing. It is the job of the Poloice attenmdingbthatvthe law is not transgressed and that any potential violent reaction which the opening comment seems to be encouaging is controlled THAT’S WHAT the POLICE are for.
As in any civilised and d Democratic country the gentleman in question is perfectly free to bring an action against the Agents or Agency concerned and the Police and seek compensation if he believes his RIGHTS uinder Law have been transgressed.
MWhat will now happen, I suspect is that more of this type of action by wahtever Agency will be seen to,be carried out.
By encouraging non-co-operation the public will see that non-co-operationand the general opinion will be ”SO WHAT’S to HIDE” and eventually the PUBLIC will demand action SEARCH WARRANTS will be forthcoming and that will happen quicker than you might think!
Make no mistake the ‘AGENCIES’ allready have a pretty damn good idea as to who potential ‘perps’ are, simplyn because they are totaslly unable to keeps their mouths shut, and will be targetting the most obvious to make examples of them to act as a warning to others. Be prepared for some really hefty fines and prison time
That’s the way it works.
Why would the agent nedd a searech warrant
Once again you must put your IGNORANCE on display. Of course, living in a soshullist country you would question the need for a search warrant to INVADE an AMERICAN’S privacy. In this country (a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC) we have a thing called a CONSTITUTION and within this constitution is the 4th AMENDMENT which protects us from “ILLEGAL SEARCH and SEIZURE” it REQUIRES a SEARCH WARRANT signed by a JUDGE after the COP/FBI/DEA/ATF present adequate EVIDENCE that a CRIME has been committed. Law Enforcement cannot just show up, knock on your door and gain entrance to your home and you are under NO obligation to COMPLY with any requests from that LEO otherwise, however once you open that door and allow that “warrantless” LEO to enter your home or otherwise comply with their request you open a whole new can of worms. A warrant must be SPECIFIC, and any EVIDENCE seized outside the scope of that warrant is not admissible in court. IF you open the door and allow a warrantless search you open yourself to all kinds of crap. “We want to check your guns.” “Okay come on in.” “Is that a joint in the ashtray?” Well, yeah but I thought” “Shut up scumbag, what else are you doing in here?” Better check that computer for drug deals” “WHAT’S THIS? child pornography?” “Cuff Im Danno”. That kind of shit probably happens daily in your world like the army veteran that was arrested over an anti-LGBTQ post he RESHARED online that had CAUSED SOMEONE “ANXIETY.”… You are REALLY out your depth by ATTEMPTING to conflate your Soshullist AUTHORITARIAN government with a legal system that must operate within the confines of a document devised to PROTECT its CITIZENS from an OVERREACHING AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT such as many of those in European, Asian and Middle Eastern Countries oh yeah toss in Canada and Australia as well. Once again, I invite you to concern yourself with your own problems (of which your ignorance is no small part), we can handle our own. And OBTW: take some time to “proofread” your posts BEFORE you hit that “post comment” button, your spelling is atrocious and in the day of FREE “spell check” and “Grammar” programs is pretty much unnecessary even for the “uneducated”.
@Albert
“Why would the agent nedd a searech warrant? They made it clear in the video that co-operation was voluntary and explained exactly what they were doing.”
You missed just about everything.
First, the ATF has absolutely zero legal authority to show up at a persons home uninvited without probable cause and a warrant – that’s the first obvious part you missed and has not yet been addressed. The ATF has zero legal authority to show up to check serial numbers on guns purchased unless they have probable cause and a warrant. The ATF is not like other law enforcement – their authority has to be specifically designated by congress and congress has never authorized the ATF to perform ‘knock and talk’ type things like this.
Second, they show up implying they are ‘investigating’ a crime (watch for the mention of ‘straw purchases’ which are illegal)
Third, they mention ‘large’ numbers of guns bought and then say its two. It is not illegal for a lawfully able person to purchase two guns, or even large numbers, within a short time frame of other purchases. But the ATf says they need to check as if something might be wrong, they have a list. Wait! They have a list? Yeah, they have shown a list with the persons personally identifying information on it which is how they know where he lives. Its illegal under federal law for the ATF to maintain a database of such personally identifying information so there should not be a list.
Fourth, in the whole thing (not linked in the above article) when they first contact the gun owner they try to coerce entry briefly but then settle on the person getting the guns and showing them to clear this up. Clear what up? They don’t have any probable cause (or else they would have a warrant if they did), they don’t have anything and no legal reason to be there.
It was a ‘coercive’ attempt at an unlawful search without directly violating rights, while they were investigating a crime (‘straw purchases’ implied) they indirectly ‘accuse’ the gun owner of committing under the guise of ‘just let us check to clear this up’ excuses. They need a warrant.
The ATF can show up at an FFL to check records, but do not have legal authority to show up at a private persons home to check serial numbers on personal firearms without a warrant.
The coerced this person into consenting to a ‘search’.
Then there is this ‘we got an email’ thing. That in its self is enough to make this an illegal search, an ’email’ from someone (notice they don’t tell who the email is from) …. but anyway an email from someone is not legal authority to show up at a private citizens home.
The need a warrant, this was an illegal search even if the guy did consent to show them the serial numbers – its based upon illegal actions of the ATF being there in the first place because they have zero legal authority to show up at a private persons home for such without a warrant, then implying indirectly the person was involved with straw purchases (an illegal act), then the intimidation factor under color of law while acting illegally, and asserting authority they did not have by being there plus they were armed and on the property without permission in the commission of an illegal act thus were not acting as law enforcement and were in the specifics armed criminals invading the property.
This is not going to end well if they keep doing this, it must be stopped. Someone is going to be hurt or killed at some point.
Why would the agent nedd a searech warrant?
Short answer: Because the fucking LAW says SO…
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