Ferguson, Missouri was home to a fourth night of rioting following the shooting death of an unarmed African American. usatoday.com reports that the police arrested protesters and journalists alike. “Antonio French, a St. Louis alderman who had been posting frequent photos and video of the protests and police response, was taken to the Ferguson jail and arrested for unlawful assembly, his wife, Jasenka Benac French, said via Twitter. Journalists in the St. Louis suburb to cover the fray wound up being part of the story when two were detained at a McDonald’s restaurant where members of the media were charging cellphones and writing. Reporters Wesley Lowery of The Washington Post and Ryan Reilly of The Huffington Post said on Twitter that police told them to stop recording the chaos, then took them into custody.” The heavy-handed police response has already questions about . . .
police militarization. The cops are using armored vehicles, wearing military-style uniforms with military-style helmets, carrying military-style gear and wielding military-style rifles. Here’s a snapshot of last night’s from USA Today, with mashable.com pics from previous day’s police work.
Throughout the city on Wednesday, dozens of officers set up barricades, blocking most main roads. As the sun set, the loud flash of grenades and the whir of helicopters filled the area. Tear gas was dispersed, so much that the stinging air lingered for hours.
Members of the crowd hurled Molotov cocktails and other objects at police, according to the Associated Press.
Police yelled “Hold the line” and “Stop your vehicle.” As three vehicles approached a QuickTrip store that had burned on Sunday night, officers in bulletproof vests drew and pointed rifles at the cars.
The sound of apparent gunshots was heard nearby and police officers began to back away from protesters who approached them with their hands raised.
So the question is, does this militarized police response help matters in Ferguson or hurt them? And will it halt or accelerate the march of police militarization across the U.S.? The fact that the police are mostly white (Ferguson PD has three black officers in a force of 52) and that the community is mostly black (67.4 percent African American) will no doubt inflame this debate. But is it too late?
It’s helping bring police militarization, and post-9/11 police dogma, to the forefront of mainstream thought. I’m a millenial. People my age who otherwise wouldn’t care are pissed about this.
Agreed. This is a damn shame. I’m not a hater of LE as a whole like it seems most people are these days, but some of this is going too far, too fast.
Yes, some of it is way too far. For instance, check out all of these ways in which the police are exceeding military rules of engagement and armament, etc. The general consensus here being, “Militarization? Heck, we didn’t do that stuff!”: https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson
Awesome link! Thanks.
The more urgent a situation appears, the more the government (who the police are merely a branch of) use it as an excuse to become hostile and aggressive and the more they violate the rights of peaceful people.
> use it as an excuse to become hostile and aggressive and the more they violate the rights of peaceful people.
I don’t want total militarization either..but what PEACEFUL people? A situation has occurred, the story is not fully told, and a riot starts. Phoned in death threats to LE. LOOTING and BURNING completely unrelated businesses.
Mad about your friend being shot by police? Steal armloads of cell phones and tennis shoes. That makes sense. Threaten cops, throw Molotovs? You f’in bet the PEOPLE WE PAY to take care of this will gear up. I would and, be honest here, so would you.
Put up barricades, get them to behave in a civilized manner, shut off utilities to the neighborhoods under self-attack. Once there is an immediate effect to their cause, calmer heads might get others in line.
Hit a cop with a brick? BANG!
Next.
You make an excellent point. I’m pretty heavily against the up-arming of police and fact that too many podunck towns hand some M16s and an MRAP to a bunch of gun ho but poorly trained guys, label them SWAT and call it good.
That said, while I understand the frustration of the residents over this issue, I don’t get why the citizens think looting is an appropriate response. The shooting certainly does look bad, but at the moment, we don’t know what actually happened. This could be Zimmerman all over again. White guy shoots black guy, so it must be a race issue. Maybe the police officer was right or maybe he was wrong. We still don’t know the facts. That said, four days should be enough to figure things out and it certainly looks like some stalling on the part of the police is going on here.
If the black community restricted its response to picketing (and maybe looting) the police station, they’d have my unequivocal support. They’ve had to put up with a lot of grief from the predominantly white police force and the town has a long history of racial segregation issues. However, turning a tragic incident into the opportunity for some five finger discounting makes the participants simply out of control animals that need to be put down.
You are conflating the protesters with the looters; they are two totally different groups of people.
I’m not convinced the bare handful of looters wasn’t paid off to go in there and legitimize the police response.
This. Like most civil unrest incidents, peaceful protestors and looting rioters are acting in the same time frame. Discretion is a very good thing to have in these situations.
“What peaceful people?” Not all were looting. The 2 reporters who were assaulted and detained in McDonald’s, the Al-Jezeera reporters who were shot at with tear gas and who had to flea and then the cops took down their cameras that were on tripods. And many more.
Also, I was speaking in general terms. The totally unnecessary lockdown of a major city (Boston) after the marathon bombing, hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, the Patriot Act. I could go on.
I am against arming law enforcement with military gear; But; There are many hard working, tax paying civilized people of color that I’ll bet were not a part of the out of control mob of black people in Ferguson. Then there are black people who don’t want to work because they feel whitey owes them anything they want because of slavery that was abolished 150 years go by a white man. It is these out of control black people that don’t want to be called nigger. A “BIG” black dude breaks the law and beats the hell out of an policeman trying to detain him and the policeman shoots the 6’4″, 300 lb black in self defense. Now the blacks, (I didn’t say niggers) want to lynch the officer who will undoubtabley once the honest facts (And not the dudes buddy with the hands up crap:) be exonerated. In the meantime; It is to bad Jackson, Sharpton, the islamic traitor obama and all of his co conspirators traitors and their wealthy supporters arn’t a part of the black mobs who you can bet will go on a stealing, burning destroying killing rampage when the officer has been proven of no wrong doing!!! Now blacks want to piss and scream about law enforcement in military gear. Bullshit. Open up with .50 calibers and let the blacks know get your black ass’s under control or be carried out in a body bag. Sound brutal???? Bulshit. Fricking black mobs want to play hardball?? Show them what .50 hard ball is all about. When the blacks know their out of control bullshit will probaly get them a body bag there is not going to much if any rioting. Now reactivate the WPA; Now you work as welfare is a thing of the past. No more black mama’s with 15 kids by 15 different black guys getting big welfare chacks. All of this sounds terrible?? How about all of the hate and destruction by out of control blacks who expect to be paid to do nothing but cause racial trouble.
Exactly. I was on twitter the other night and everyone was complaining about police militarization and I thought “well at least this raising awareness about PM”
Yep. Even the low information voters who don’t care about police militarization can’t look the other way at this. Unfortunately some are saying that this is institutionalized racism. I don’t see race riots.
Yet. But Sharpton and Obama are all over it.
We should remember this the next time Pete King opens his pie hole.
Yeah, and I’m an OFWG who would like to add that if a police force acts like an occupying army, it should not be surprised when the citizenry starts to treat it like one.
Correct!
Yep.
Alley, thanks for that validation of a trend I’ve sugested here, might be underway among those first believers in hope and change.
Millenials and independent thinkers might be intersted in the writings of Professor Glenn Reynolds, consitutional law scholar, aka the Bogfather, over at Instapundut. Heres a reference to his earlier writing, mentioned by Rand Paul, today:
http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/193388/
When the only tool you have is a hammer (militarized police), every situation looks like a nail.
Unfortunately, I believe this will hasten the pace at which DHS is encouraging local police departments to gear up with military grade equipment.
Totally agree. Give the goons some new toys and they just MUST use them at the first opportunity. Land of the free…..oh yeah….in your dreams.
I would say that the police are either well armed, or even underarmed. I want a effective force agains rioting masses
I think an effective force against the rioting masses would be a police force that did not summarily arrest people for recording events and did not respond like an occupying army. I think the police should have the tools to do their jobs, but I do not think they should have the capacity to deny these folks, the Bundy family or anyone else their natural rights.
When I was in the CT National Guard, we did riot training with shields and batons. We were trained to form a solid line and look threatening, while giving the crowd a way to escape to avoid any “boiling over” of the crowd. The stomp-shuffle was alot more effective than a rambling group of armed guys in the wrong camouflage wandering next to an armoured vehicle. Also, while watching that video, it looked like 9 officers all stopped to check on one guy being handcuffed. In my training, those being cuffed would be pulled through the line to be dealt with by a set group of guys in the back.
These guys didn’t look like riot police, they looked like a goon squad.
I think if more of the rioters targets were hard targets, there would be far fewer imported rioters ant the riot would die out quickly. A police force that has the ability (and apparently the propensity) to arrest anyone for anything (or nothing), is not necessarily a good thing
Sammy says “I would say that the police are either well armed, or even underarmed. I want a effective force agains rioting masses,
”
@Sammy
If only the Brits had an effective force against the rioting masses. Dont.Lick.Boots.Ever.
So you want an standing army specifically to quash internal dissent.
Brown shirts are issued over there, kamerad.
I disagree. In fact, the police do have a vast and widely varied assortment of tools at their disposal.
There are community outreach programs, citizen’s police academy programs, student presentation programs, crime prevention programs, cash for crooks programs, anti-gang tip programs, commend or condemn an officer or civilian employee programs, news releases and crime statistics programs, and even a police museum open to the public in a number of the larger cities.
There are plain clothes cops, uniformed cops, undercover cops, crisis management cops, public relations cops, scientist cops, lawyer cops, accountant cops, administrative cops, recruitment cops, cops in executive leadership of the department, and cops whose specific function is to serve as educators of the public in the ways and means of police work. In the police, as in the military, the actual number of individuals running around kitted up Rambo-style is very small relative to the total personnel.
No, the real problem with the police isn’t that the police wield weapons of war, but that they shelter statist ambitions. Shakespeare was right: these violent delights have violent ends. When a cop’s every desire is to smash someone’s face or crack someone’s skull, he uses his hammer not because it’s his only tool, but because it’s the best tool for that vicious-minded job.
Now, I’m no fan of MRAPs and the whole militarized police approach in general, because I don’t believe it’s even all that useful, let alone cost effective. Nevertheless, expecting the police to recommit to lawful preservation of the peace, simply by banning inanimate armored vehicles, is like expecting violent criminals to give up the life and get day jobs, simply by barring them from owning inanimate firearms.
I agree with you whole heartedly. LE has numerous resources that in today’s society are rarely used. When I was growing up we had the officer friendly program which targeted kids and young adults. The purpose was to ensure that coming up we stayed on the right path. It was effective for about 80% of us. This program is no longer used. I don’t mind a well armed police force in the event that something should happen to where they are our first line of defense but don’t just hand them out proper training must go with that.
I have a friend, who until his recent promotion, was in charge of hiring at our local PD. He considered it one of his main responsibilities to keep out prospective officers who wanted to join up so they could legally crack some skulls. He said there were a lot of these people and it took a lot of work to weed them out.
I wonder how many of them get into other police departments less strict about screening.
The applicants most adept at talking around this sort of filtering are the most dangerous.
Ben Richards: Food riot in progress. Approximately 1,500 civilians. No weapons are evident.
Dispatcher: Proceed with Plan Alpha, eliminate anything moving.
Richards: I said the crowd is unarmed! There are lots of women and children down there. All they want is some food, for God’s sake!
The butcher of Bakersfield!
“Uh-uh, Princess. We’re having you fixed. You’re gonna be respectful, compliant, and appreciative… the way a woman should be.”
Who is yoahr daddy and what das he do?
Of course, this is only speculation but I think that too many urban officers will see these events and only identify with the other officers and not journalists or other citizens caught in the middle. It’s my guess that it will drive their decisions to militarize even more.
My first thought while watching the video was that it would at least highlight police militarization. How many will see police militarization as a bad thing after this is anyone’s guess.
Of course they will. Militarization was originally triggered in part by the Watts riots, and when they used the new tactics in LA riots, they got even more impressive pushback… so they militarized even more. This isn’t the first or even the second round.
Militarization started with the king of evil Daryl Gates in the early 1970s – and it wasn’t really even his idea.
I remember well my grandfather’s (and uncle’s) utter disgust at what he did to paramilitarize the police (they were both deputies among other things). They told me exactly where we would be now if he and those of his ilk weren’t stopped, tried, and executed for treason. That never happened and here were are…
Where did I say that it started in the 90s? I said that it was triggered by the Watts riots – that’s 1965. Daryl Gates was an inspector in LAPD during that time, and those riots is what gave him the impetus for coming up with all the crap he did. Or rather it was John Nelson’s idea (triggered by the same events) but Gates was the enthusiastic believer who did more than anyone else to make it happen.
I hope there is a hell, because people like that surely need one.
I hope there is a hell, because people like that surely need one.
Yup.
Cue the DHS VIPR “Police” presence in three… two…
Nice 45 degree offset red dot on that snipers rifle.
Yeah.
Is it the gear, or has the sniper’s buddy been hitting the donuts a bit too hard?
I’m seeing donuts. And I suspect all that nice gear should not even be produced in that size.
Body armor and the camera add 35-70 lbs.
Now that’s funny, I don’t care who you are, as we say in Texas.
And being on TV always makes you look fat…
looks like a nice billet 308 setup – with a nice JP Enterprises hand guard. A pricey setup on your dime as a tax payer. nice rifle – a bit jealous not going to lie…
Yes, but why does he have his eye jammed all the way up on the eyepiece? And is he cross-eye dominant? Or has he just never used a scope before?
I think it’s just the angle of the photo…appears he’s using his right eye with the scope and he’s definitely not right on top of it.
I see what you’re saying.
My right eye is so bad (and basically uncorrectable) I just shoot rifles left handed. I really can’t see why people can’t make that tiny critical little motion with either index finger.
If it’s Thursday, it must be time for another anti-cop thread at TTAG!
Oh no! Lions, tigers, and cops with scary trucks! Again. Still.
Run around run around….flap arms, gnash teeth, pull hair!!!!
There is a distinction to be made between ‘anti-cop’ and ‘anti-police militarization.’
If you don’t believe the police are being militarized, or that those militarized police are using their tactical capabilities in non-tactical situations then please state your arguments.
You can really look at this and not see a totally out of whack militarized response? And complain that people find it excessive? After murdering that man?
@Skyler, you are a funny dude. Murder? Did I miss the trial part of your conviction?
Homicide is the crime, murder is an action. He definitely murdered that guy, whether it’s homicide is yet to be determined.
@Matt in IN, close but no cigar.
“mur·der
/ˈmərdər/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
“the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer”
synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
manslaughter;
literaryslaying
“a brutal murder”
•informal
a very difficult or unpleasant task or experience.
“my first job at the steel mill was murder”
synonyms: hell, hell on earth, a nightmare, an ordeal, a trial, misery, torture, agony More
“driving there was murder”
verb
verb: murder; 3rd person present: murders; past tense: murdered; past participle: murdered; gerund or present participle: murdering
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.
“somebody tried to murder Joe”
synonyms: kill, put to death, assassinate, execute, liquidate, eliminate, dispatch, butcher, slaughter, massacre, wipe out; More
informalbump off, do in, do away with, knock off, blow away, blow someone’s brains out, take out, dispose of, ice, rub out, smoke, waste;
literaryslay
“someone tried to murder him”
•informal
punish severely or be very angry with.
“my father will murder me if I’m home late”
•informal
conclusively defeat (an opponent) in a game or sport.
•spoil by lack of skill or “
Murder is a crime. Homicide is an action that may or may not be a crime. Murder is defined simply as the unjustified homicide aka unjustified killing. Killing someone in self defense is justifiable homicide.
Easy to say from the comfort of your chair, far removed from the civil unrest and violent police crackdown. We all have courage, and apparently a lippy mouth, to endure the misfortunes of others, now don’t we?
El Mac, you never disappoint. Are you really that clueless or you’re just trolling? To be fair, I’m not following the riots so I honestly don’t know their scale and what the appropriate response is, but how is TTAG cop bashing? By showing that, what many of us predicted, came true? That if you train police officers to be military minded and give them military tools, then their local town and its residents will be nothing more to them but enemies in hostile territory. And that’s exactly how they are behaving, by rolling out MRAPs to crush protests after what appears to be one of their own killing an innocent person unjustifiably. They are wearing full gear and are pointing loaded rifles at anybody and everybody, whether they are a threat or not. It’s only a matter of time before one of those cops lets a round fly and then all hell breaks loose. Their mindset isn’t to protect and serve the people, but themselves. They are now being trained to be an aggressive force and given the tools required for that. And you call that policing? That’s normal? I guess TTAG and other media are cop bashing by reporting this. The nerve!!!
In fairness I don’t know the “exact” details..but “detaining” the press and any peaceful protesters (not against detaining looters) sounds a heck of a lot like N. Korea or the USSR
I don’t know the “exact” details..but “detaining” the press
“Stop resisting, stop resisting!” Cops. [rolleyes] Here’s the story.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2014/08/13/ferguson-police-arrest-post-reporter-not-resisting/m8bpzkavTs2EupVmITEmqO/story.html
Pieces of crap. Freaking blueprint right here. Cops searched a relatives business van the other day without a warrant. Said they would get a warrant, but she had food in there and was in a hurry. Freaking sick of this bs. They won’t stop.
Cops searched a relatives business van the other day without a warrant.
Searching for what?
IDK if it has been covered here yet but I’ve read reports of checkpoints. If your ID doesn’t match the address then you do not pass. From what I read, they were stopping and interrogating everyone.
I’m guessing drugs? Big colorful truck with logos, must be drugs. Can’t be illegal immigrants, those guys get airplane rides to key voting districts/ contagious disease nexus’s. She really should have told them to get bent, people need to know if that judge would grant a warrant with no probable cause.
This would actually not be a normal sight in the USSR, either (at least from 60s onwards). Where it would happen, like in Novocherkassk in 1962, people seriously freaked out. But the normal Soviet cop would be your friendly take-kitten-off-the-tree, ask-me-the-way-there type. They weren’t stupid.
I’m less concerned about scary trucks and more concerned about cops shooting people with their hands in the air.
But choose whichever topic you feel is less anti-cop.
@Whoever, uh, yeah.
Awesome comeback! If I called you a wit I’d be half right.
@Ralph, coming from Ralphie the Village Idiot, I take that as a compliment.
Now, now, children. Stop fighting.
Shake hands and play nice.
@El Mac
If you want respect, show respect.
From now on I will read all of Ralph’s comments in a Groucho Marx accent. It makes them even better.
El mac, you give the impression in some of your posts that you might be an active, or former cop. If so, surely you would realize that your words have meaning, and at some point you go beyond seeking to inform, to seeking to inflame.
@rlc2, and that’s exactly the point. 75% of the posts here by unknowledgeable nitwits or purpose built rabble rousers are exactly just that – meant to inflame. It gets rather old.
El mac, you lose the ability to inform, with your insight as LEO ( you did not confirm on that, can you?)
if yiu lower yourself to that level, no matter how tempting.
You know the old saying about getting into pi$$ing contests…everyone ends up smelling of urine…
*If* this is what the police have become, then I am anti-police. The behavior is unacceptable, no matter the uniform. If this is not what police have become, if this does not represent them, then they need to change that characterization.
@John, ….and wail!!!
Oh look everybody, its paul t McCains alt account
@Zachary marrs, nah….just another guy that doesn’t drink the RF koolaid.
I expect it’s another guy who, like you, subscribes to this cop adage:
“With full armor, the right shit, and training, you can kick ass and have fun.”
Dude, we’re seeing a classic “Police Riot” from the 60s. Google it. Some of us lived through them.
The militarization of our swinest will accelerate until the abuse happens in middle class white areas. Then they’re in big trouble. It may stop at that point. We did see them back down in Nevada, at least for now.
Well the good news is in a few years there won’t be a middle class to piss off. So …yay?
It doesn’t much matter if the Ferguson PD is mostly white, as the majority of the officers you see in photos are from the St. Louis County police forces. They’re the ones with the military toys shooting at people and arresting reporters.
The reason the Founders did not want a standing army is because a standing army gets tired of standing around. Same goes for the militarized government paramilitary squads some call SWAT teams.
Or, as one of my history professors put it, “you can do anything with bayonets except sit on them”.
haha thats a great quote
Good thing those cops have MARPAT pants for better concealment on the city streets.
So if reporters (“news media” is more accurate) had not been detained would their narrative be the same? I think not.
Cops arresting the media? Telling them to stop recording the events? Bad cop.
Yup. And I’m guessing the press has more and higher paid attorneys than the county.
The lawsuit is probably being typed up now.
Except for the Al Jazeera crew that got gassed. That clip will smash all previous AJ-USA viewership records. On other networks.
A reporter for the WaPo and one from the HuffPo. I’ll go out on a limb and guess that until fairly recently they were solidly in the “only the police are to be trusted with firearms” camp. I’m kind of having trouble figuring out whom, if anyone, to root for here.
Use it in discussions with the anti-gun left (as distinguished from the pro-gun left) to demonstrate why we shouldn’t trust only the cops with guns.
That made me laugh.
Bad cop…no doughnut
Or if you don’t have a strong presence things could easily get out of control. Without a strong response then the city burns. This is a state of unrest. Order must be restored for the people who live there. We have a method to remedy unjust police action. Rioting is not that rememdy. Unless there is a strong presence looting would go on unchecked.
I’m not happy with either side however I will always side with law and order.
“Order must be restored for the people who live there.”
An interesting point, and one to take very seriously.
However, this kind of thinking CAN be abused. How do you define “order?”
Is it merely stopping the riots and looting? Or, does the rioting stand solely as a springboard for further degrees of “order.”
Gotta say…arresting folks, reporters or not it does not matter, for videoing and photographing events is quite alarming if it is happening as described.
Order would be defined in this instance as a lack of riots and malicous violence. I’m not saying jack boots kicking in doors because that is not order either. Order would be defined as a lack of riots and a return to the rule of law where as a citizen could leave their residence or operate their business without having large groups menacing their persons or business.
Good enough?
“Good enough?”
Yes, for YOUR definition of order.
Question remains…what is “order” for those pulling the strings and calling the shots in municipal departments across the country. And by string puller, I mean the politicians as much as the actual chain of command within an agency.
There’s a real slippery slope danger …
Especially since there has been NOTHING from the mayor of St. Louis and/or Ferguson so far. Just crickets, frogs and flash bangs.
Why don’t they fly Kerry in and have him declare a unilateral cease fire? Its got to work at least one of these times, right?
Law and order is one thing but you don’t go into an American city looking like a force recon unit. We witness this a lot overseas and usually quelled in a day or 2. Their cops show up with sticks horses shields and gas but they still look like cops and act like cops. They arrest the perps that need to be arrested.
“We have a method to remedy unjust police action.”
Do we, though? How many times have we seen police use of excessive force swept under the rug, or punished with a short vacation? I agree that rioting is not a proper response, of course, but it’s what you get when people no longer have faith in the system. The refusal of police to clean their own house and get rid of the “bad apples” is one of the root causes of this sort of unrest. The public no longer expects the justice system to work in cases like this, and the frustration boils over. Then an overly-militarized response, intended to intimidate, does actually work to clamp down and restore order, but at the cost of further resentment and frustration. Rinse, repeat, the cycle continues, and tensions are ratcheted up one more level.
One of these sorts of incidents is going to be the real tipping point, and when that happens, it’s going to be really ugly. I’m not sure what the solution is, but part of it has to be the dismantling of the Blue Wall and the end of the “us vs. them” attitude that a lot of police officers seem to have – an attitude that is fostered and reinforced when you kit out your cops like they’re Marines going to war.
Since the po-po are [in theory] under someone’s command, it’s time to publicly CRUCIFY their commanders. As an example. And not with a paid vacation. With aggravated assault charges.
Correction: It’s time to give the politicians who support marauding law enforcement an *unpaid* vacation.
This is an extremely poor way to restore order, however. It only serves to inflame the riots further, and draw more people to them who would otherwise stay back, but who don’t like the sight of camouflaged armed thugs on an APC parking in their streets and casually aiming a rifle at passers-by. If this was outside of my window, I’d be on the street right now.
+1
Typical anti-police agitprop.
The police are up against people from out of state up here to stir up riots and violent confrontations. The mobs destroyed private property, to the tune of wiping out a local convenience store worth well over one million bucks.
The police there have had well over twenty vehicles destroyed by mobs, have been shot at, have been attacked with bricks, bottles and molotov cocktails.
Thanks, RF, for adding to the mess with overblown headlines that are not reflecting reality.
Note to media: best to get your precious Pulitzer price winning hopeful shots from a place not between angry mobs and police officers.
Tell you what, let’s have the anti-cop fanatics on TTAG head on up here and post up in front of the mobs wearing and using whatever “non-militarization” gear they want and see how they do.
Very well said, thank you.
This comment had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the truth about guns.
@Dryw, if that be true, then neither does this article have anything to do with the truth about guns. However, it does have everything to do with the typical leftist agitprop foisted on folk by RF.
Lighthearted sarcasm. Based upon an comment left by the Reverend in a separate story.
In my opinion this is exactly the manner of story which should be published/discussed @TTAG
Sidebar: I read the first sentence in your response with a pirate accent.
@Dryw, well right, because it has so much to do with guns! Yeah….
Leftist agitprop? RF? You, sir, have a very tenuous connection to reality, or leftist agitprop for that matter.
@ElMac: sunlight is the best disinfectant. If a specific topic, any topic, is a pile of malarky; earnest discussion/investigation assists in highlighting that conclusion.
All part of a broader conversation: is/is not militarization a real issue? That certainly is relevant to firearms discussion.
@Dryw, really? How so?
Of all potential points in the discussion, one of the most relevant is the “They have X, so I need Y” argument from both sides of the equation.
If militarization is a real issue, will such ‘escalation’ accomplish anything? If its not an real issue, why are so many concerned?
The fact that TTAG is not a “reviews only” site is what makes it stand out in a crowd. No one has shackled anyone to a chair with the browser locked into a singular URL.
@Dryw, I would submit a name change of this blog is in order: “The Truth According to RF”.
I appear to have misconstrued this thread as an earnest discussion of pertinence, not an argument for it’s own sake.
Bwahahahaha was that a joke?!?! Did you seriously call this leftist antiprop?
if I stop at the drive thru of the McDonalds, will I get a ride in an MRAP?
Depends on how many happy meals you buy, doesn’t it?
The problem is that situations like this should never happen. People are rioting and attacking police because of decades of unfair treatment of black people. I don’t have all the details on the murder of the guy in MO, but the police have unjustly beat and murdered many black people for a very long time across the country.
I am not anti police. I am anti corruption. Based off of my personal experience as a young black man, there is quite a bit of corruption in the profession of law enforcement.
“Give a man power and you will reveal his true character.” -Abraham Lincoln
@justAMan, no you are not just a man, you are a young black man – your description, not mine. Murder? You might want to go back to school and study up on the court system. There hasn’t even been a trial yet and you have the man convicted. Hmmmmm….. see the hypocrisy there?
We have multiple eyewitnesses that state the cops shot the 18 year old after he ran away from them (approximately 20ft) and then continued to shoot him after he stopped and raised his hands in the air.
@ “El Mac” – you might want to go back to school and study up on the court system. Murder is illegal and cops shouldn’t be doing it.
@Anonymouse, uh….yeah and eye witnesses are always so spot on. Who appointed you judge, jury and executioner? Ah yes, you did. Why of course.
@the mac
You seemed to have missed the mark. The question is – who appointed the cop judge, jury, and executioner? He shouldn’t be shooting unarmed people 20 feet away from him with their hands in the air.
@Anonymouse, oh, my bad. I didn’t realize you were there.
@El Mac
“@justAMan, no you are not just a man, you are a young black man – your description, not mine. Murder? You might want to go back to school and study up on the court system. There hasn’t even been a trial yet and you have the man convicted. Hmmmmm….. see the hypocrisy there?”
Holy crap man! You are so racist! If you started at “study up on the court…” it would have just been an annoying defend any cop at any cost comment. That was just over the line.
“You might want to go back to school and study up on the court system.”
Would this be the same court system that gives automatic benefit of the doubt to the police, the one that routinely enables suppression of evidence, the one with prosecutors who either decline prosecutions or overcharge the accused to guarantee acquittals, or the one where the local and state prosecutors are almost, always in a cozy relationship with the departments accused of misconduct?
Need evidence? In the last two decades the Seattle PD, New Orleans, PD, Cincinnati PD among others required no less than Federal agents, Federal prosecutors and Federal courts issuing Federal rulings and Federal decrees to stop systematic and gross violations of human and constitutional rights.
Doesn’t happen often, but I have to agree with you, Paul. With all the outside agitation currently present, the situation is a mess, and unless the desired result is burning down the whole town, then a heavy, high profile, disciplined, well armed police presence is probably the best response. Unfortunately all it takes is one trigger happy, out of control cop to blow this into a huge problem that can spread to other cities. It could have been handled differently at the very beginning, but I think it’s too late now for Mayberry’s Sheriff Taylor to calmly talk folks into going home peacefully.
Disciplined force?
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not, but pointing weapons at unarmed people is hardly disciplined – they should Be Disciplined for such actions!
A disciplined force would not be arresting people (public or reporters) whose only perceived crime is that they were/are recording events – which the Supreme Court had ruled is perfectly legal.
If you go and read the “Veterans on Ferguson” website you’ll be able to read what a truly disciplined force thinks of the police actions in Ferguson, MO.
Gotta agree with you here rev. What do you think should happen RF. The poverty pimps are moving in & you can be sure Holder & Odumbo will move in to f##k things up. RF do you think 50 black police officers would help? They would be seen as Uncle Tom or whitey. Whatever-Ferguson is screwed.
Paul, here is my issue with their gear choice, those are Battle Fatigues, that is not riot gear. Many of the cops in the pics I’m seeing are armed with a rifle and ballistic vests (not riot, ie, padded hard plastic). I don’t see helmets with face shields, long batons and/or polycarbonate shields, they things best used to contain a riot. If you are armed with only a rifle then you have basically two choices don’t shoot or shoot, and very little options as far as crowd control goes (you don’t swing a rifle like a baton because it could be taken, nor push back a crowd like a shield, because you have to stay at stand of distance). They look like they are dressed for outright war, not riot control, and it isn’t helping their cause in the court of public opinion, in fact it’s drawing more militant protesters with no connection to the community.
The goal in riot control is to control, disperse, and ideally push through (I’m you’re seen how they used shields in 300) and detain the key agitators, good luck doing that with guys who’s only option is a rifle (rubber bullets are capable of killing at CQB distances). Personally, I’d prefer a face shielded helmet and a large shield if they are throwing Molotov Cocktails, shields are easier to drop then ripping off burning clothes.
This is riot gear, very different from BDUs.
http://files.schuminweb.com/life-and-times/2009/crystal-city/full-size/206.jpg
NAILED IT!
I believe you are talking about this kind of riot police in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbFSVh1mmiw
S Korean Riot Control Police. Baton, shields, grabbing leading agitators etc etc. It is definitely a training session.
These cops (used to be called Combat Police in S Korea for a reason) are actually young people serving in the S Koran police for 2-3 year term instead of serving in the actual armed forces of S Korea. Hence these these folks are in early 20s, not in 40 – 50 year old police officers.
We wouldn’t have to Paul – if the police wouldn’t shoot unarmed 18 year-olds in the back while running away.
Your belief is the militarization of the untrained or not properly trained is the right course of action? That’s why states have a national guard who’s primary training is for things of this nature. LA riots of 92 CA national guard. Putting military weapons and gear in the hands of street cops is a disaster waiting to happen.
I did. While in the military. Yes, while doing riot training with the CT national Guard, we had less “militarization” than the police in the above pictures. So I say this- If the police look more like soldiers than, say, soldiers do… Doesn’t that count as militarization?
Isn’t that just Bloomberg’s notion of “keeping us safe?”
+1
BTW: Your anti-establishment comments have put you on a watch list at your local Fusion Center.
It’s OK. I know the guys at DHS personally. Saved some of their bacon a couple of times.
Well maybe if the police didn’t have so many members that go around shooting unarmed people, or beating them to death, or shooting dogs at the drop of a hat, and maybe if they were trained to de-escalate situations instead of escalating them as they so often do, then maybe there wouldn’t be so much “anti-cop agitprop.”
And maybe if the police didn’t lie so much and cover up their own crimes there would be less of this “anti-cop agitprop.”
Three eye witnesses said he turned around with his hands up in a universal sign of surrender and the cop then executed him. This, after the cop shot him in the back.
Paul T. McCain – Maybe you should stop complaining about all the “anti-cop agitprop” you see here. The police have well earned the criticism.
Admit it, Paul. You’re watching the show and enjoying the popcorn thinking, “those assholes deserved it, and then some more”, and your only regret that you’re not over there to parade in tacticool gear, scare some civvies by muzzle-swiping them (just for giggles), and maybe go rough on some hippies with taser and pepper spray (just for squeals).
Shut it Paul. You are a anti-gun, pro-militarization of police, armchair know it all. You take an actual legit protest that has every right to turn angry and violent and blame everyone but the the cops.
“… that police told them to stop recording the chaos, then took them into custody….”
I thought there was a ruling that public locations are public and there’s no expectation of privacy, and public officials are not exempt.
Man, this is messed up stuff. That dude with his hands up and there are two rifles in that picture trained on him. Lord knows how many more are off camera.
Contempt of cop trumps all rulings. They can play the dumb card locking you up for no crime whatsoever and let others sort it out while you sit in a cell dreaming of how much you’ll clear in the lawsuit.
Camera + stupid red zoning cop = ka’ching!
It is certainly a double edged sword. You have to respond to the riots, but military type clothing and gear is ridiculous. How about riot shields and light grey uniforms. Camo in an urban setting, never understood it. Standing and sitting on a Bearcat, lovely target profile.
As the Rodney King riots and Katrina aftermath have shown us the police are unprepared for this kind of thing. Send in the roof Koreans! 🙂
Not that I should ever have to justify it, but these riots are a good reason to have a 30rnd mag in a rifle.
There have been some interesting interviews from police and protestors coming out of the area along the lines of “when I see a cop in riot gear all I can think is riot.”
A higher up cop from the department actually commented that uniformed cops had better ability to calm a would-be riot while the riot gear cops basically guaranteed a riot would happen. I’ll see if I can find his name in a transcript of the interview.
It’s a good point. Does it cause the situation to escalate even further?
I don’t really know. I do feel uncomfortable seeing all those militarized cops running around amped up knowing they’re two weeks paid vacation away from shooting someone.
I feel like the actual military, the the Missouri National Guard, would have more accountability. Plus they could free up police resources to go make arrests without having to worry about being mobbed.
The guy who was the Chief of Police during Seattle riots says the same thing now, and admits that his handling of them was totally wrong for this exact reason – that they expected violent confrontation, and geared up for it and behaved as it would be coming any moment… and ended up basically triggering it.
Okay, I got my wires crossed. It was the Customs and Border Control Commish speaking about the WTO riots.
http://www.npr.org/2014/07/18/332286063/transcript-commissioner-kerlikowskes-full-interview
He believes suiting up his guys with riot gear played a role in instigating the riots. Such a display showed the protestors that a riot was expected and so the self-fulfilling prophecy played out.
Hindsight is always 20/20 but if we are to believe that cops need to up arm to compete with an up arming criminal menace than why wouldnt the reverse also be true? Cops come out amped and armored and people are supposed to remain calm and orderly?
There is a big difference in showing up, all geared out, before a riot even happens vs. bringing the correct gear to a riot that’s 4 days old. What do you think inspires the out of town rioters, pictures on TV of rioters with their hands up facing batons and shields OR rioters with their hands up, yelling “hands up, don’t shoot”, facing cops wielding rifles (you can’t see rubber bullets in the pic on the news)? The black panthers and the race pimps get endless mileage out of the second option, not nearly as much with the first.
Dressing cops like soldiers is inflaming rather then diminishing those looking for trouble. The cops are making it too easy for the agitators at this point, and their militarized appearance has a lot to do with it.
Even regular infrantry doesn’t wear that amount of body armor!
Those POS cops (Police Operator Syndrome) have styled themselves on ST6 or Delta.
Another QOTD – Is Michael Brown the new Crispus Attucks or the next Trayvon Martin?
Great question!!!
With Travyon, there weren’t many eye witnesses and none of them was close by and saw everything in detail. This case seems to be the opposite. Multiple eye witnesses and close by:
Darian Johnson (the fellow jay-walker)
Piaget Crenshaw (walking to her apartment)
Tiffany MItchell (driving in her car)
But hey – we have the Trayvon family lawyer on the case already.
Honestly, with as many eye witnesses as there are – should be a quick shut and closed case. Right?? Right? Wait? No one has even been arrested yet? If he wasn’t a police officer – his name would have already been released.
I was watching a report on the militarization of the police on MSNBC the other day on the Rachel Maddow show. I rarely watch such a biased network, but even they were concerned about why small town police forces need MRAPs and other military gear. They also were perplexed by the camo in a city…
That’s one lucky dog in the first picture…
It’s OK. It’s a white dog.
they probably circled back to shoot it off camera
Hopefully this gets people to care about our broken justice and law enforcement system.
Sadly, the people that will care probably already do, and read / post places like here at TTAG and even the progressive sites. It’s funny…we share some of the same concerns.
But, I don’t know that it will matter to whatever segment orders their life around what new cell phone model is coming out, when Dancing with the Stars is on or whatever some chick who’s name starts with a K is doing this week.
I just don’t know. Can you fire up folks out of apathy? It didn’t really happen in the American Revolution, and we have a far greater number of “distractions” nowadays. (At least then, people had livelihood as an excuse to be distracted…now, it’s “entertainment” and that is itself a bit disconcerting).
Most Americans were pretty apathetic regarding the Revolution in the 1770’s, too. Only a small minority of active participants is actually needed – the vast majority of any population will just go along with whoever seems to be in charge. This was a recurring theme back then – how to rile up the people to support the revolution? It turns out, they didn’t really need to, as long as they had their 5-10% of active revolutionaries and a sufficient population of supporters to provide money and resources. True, we do have more distractions these days, but we also have a lot more free time. It’s a lot easier to revolt when you don’t have to worry about harvesting the corn and miking the cows.
I’m not saying I expect another revolution – I think that’s an extremely remote possibility – but that apathy isn’t the main thing standing in the way of one. The collective loss of the values that America was founded on is a much bigger problem to overcome – back then, there was a spirit of self-determination and responsibility that is all but gone today. The average adult American today is a spoiled, coddled child compared to the people of the Revolutionary period.
It turns out, they didn’t really need to, as long as they had their 5-10% of active revolutionaries and a sufficient population of supporters to provide money and resources.
Do not forget that the active revolutionaries had substantial support from France. Much like the CIA aided Iraq and Russia is aiding the Ukraine Separatists.
Better stay out of McDonald’s in Ferguson, lawbreakers. Pshhht.
I’m not really bothered by the police response, seriously. These maniacs are burning down businesses and most of the media on the scene are there to help them. They want “Trayvon 2: Trayvon meets the LA riots” so they can get ratings/clicks and build their careers, they came to vilify the police and their twitter updates or what have you function as sources of intelligence for organized vandals and looters.
Riots are not democracy, riots are not justice. The police are doing their jobs and it is the so-called journalists and looters who should be ashamed. If this was a bad shooting that started this, then the officer should face justice. But the fact of the matter is someone leaked the wrong name for the officer already and that individual received credible death threats. I am not yet convinced it was a bad shooting, the truth will come out in due time and if you think the local police there are going overboard, I think you’re blind.
When rioting happens near your neighborhood, and next day you’ll be staring down the barrel of a rifle that a camouflaged guy sitting on top of an APC next to your window aims at you because you might be a “threat”… you’ll realize why you’re wrong.
I think what we really need right now in Saint Louis is a team of Chipotle Ninjas to roll in here and hold public open carry demonstrations in the neighborhoods of Ferguson to show everyone how they have the right to open carry. This will quell the disturbances and the police can take off their body armor and lay down their military-brand military rifles, etc.
I’m thinking this team of guys should lead the way:
http://7mat2p4zx64lewmu.zippykid.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2000×2000.jpg
What in the world is with the jeans tucked into the boots? Good Lord….
We don’t need no stinkin militarized police, why back 100 years ago or so armed citizens dressed in white would have put down these criminals right quick. (that’s a big /S for all you faux Libertarians out there.)
Yeah, way to represent the POTG as a decent group there tdivna.
Getting tired of the kinds of comments you leave…
Well Dick, if you studied your history and knew something about the demography of the region then you would know that any riot in the black community in St Louis area in 1914 would have been met by the bed sheeted crowd with the full support of local law enforcement.
I am neither a police basher or lover. Cops are neither good nor bad. They are just cops. Too many TTAGians like to talk about how the good old days before professional law enforcement were much better than today. Well, before the era of professional police who do you think dealt with civil disorder? The authorities either relied on military forces or the local citizens who paid little attention to the Constitutional rights of the citizens particularly when they were black. I suggest you go back and read up on the subject and then come back and talk to me.
I’m beginning to think you have a Ninja fetish. Do you whack your mole off to Ninja pics?
Besides arresting the reporters I don’t see anything wrong with this.
Should they let the people continue to destroy the city?
Should they stand there and let people launch maltov cocktails at them?
I think they’ve shown pretty good restraint considering the situation. If this was happening in Az sheriff Joe would have put a stop to this stuff instantly.
I don’t get the hate for ALL cops. They are just like anybody else. Some are rational and some are hotheads. Just like the everyday people you encounter in the streets.
The title of this article is also VERY misleading. I was expecting to read a story about cops robbing people or something.
On a side note.. did anybody esle see the news story of the shoe store being interview?
They looted his store and took every pair of basketball shoes and other athletic shoes but not one pair of work boots or dress shoes were taken. hahaha
The hate is about militarization of the police..not the police themselves. Frankly, in this particular situation having the police try and restore order is a bad idea. It should be the Missouri National Guard.
+1
Ahh.. I see. It’s ok for me to have body armor and class 3 weapons but not the police.
If I had the money I’d buy my own armored truck too…
I hope we never have to find this out but I have no problem with local PDs having any of the stuff they do.
You do realize if the time comes these same things you hate will be used against the feds by these same police as they stand by our side against the tyranny?
I have no naivety when it comes to whose side the police will be on if Federals turn against the people. The pictures above show that clearly. Police will be given a choice, resign and become a victim, or join with the Feds. Cops like to boast, oh yeah, I’ll protect the citizens from the Feds. But when the Feds start paying their paycheck, you can be sure they’ll be the first to turn.
Ferguson is the slippery slope. They will see how much they can get away with, and then our rights will slip some more. I have zero sympathy for the rioters. If their community would control them and instill how to peacefully protest, then things would ramp down. But the police are agitating the situation. There is no need for machine guns against unarmed or lightly armed citizens. If police were able to break up similar riots with billy clubs and shields in the past, what makes this any different? These aren’t Iraqis toting machine guns. These are American citizens with due process rights. Just like we like to advocate our 2A rights. De-escalate, talk. De-escalate and talk some more. That is how you break a riot. Not bashing peoples’ heads in and threatening lethal force.
Love how you didn’t respond to the questions I asked you, TimB ..and only replied to what you wanted.
You think a paycheck is going to matter to anybody when all hell breaks loose? lol
No reply tab under your post either. If you blocked replies..you’re a chicken shit.
No reply tab under your post either. If you blocked replies..you’re a chicken shit.
*cough* take a look at your own post *cough*
I’ll presume you’re new to TTAG and/or haven’t bothered to browse through many comments, including those above. You might notice that reply indentation and the “reply” link is always limited to three levels. Absent such a limit, reply indentation would eventually result in a single column of letters at the extreme right edge.
“Ahh.. I see. It’s ok for me to have body armor and class 3 weapons but not the police.”
Presumably, you’re spending your own money on body armor and class III guns, so knock yourself out. If you’re spending tax money on it, as the police are, then the citizens who pay those taxes should have a say in how the money is spent. And it seems like the money in the town of Ferguson, and St. Louis county, would have been better spent on proper riot gear, not camo BDUs, armored trucks, and short-barreled rifles.
But it’s more fun to play army with an M4 than to practice square formations with a padded suit and big Lexan shield…
Chris – the looters and peaceful protestors are two entirely separate groups in two different locations. It’s easy to roll them all into one to justify the police’ misuse of power, but it is a false narrative.
The police snipers had their rifles trained on unarmed protestors, not looters/vandals. Likewise, they made reporters stop recording then arrested them because the protestors were approaching that area and didn’t want the police response to be recorded … the looters/vandals were not approaching – they were not “escorting them out for their own safety”.
No, they shouldn’t. But you don’t need MRAPs and hundreds of cops armed with automatic rifles and decked out in combat fatigues with 6+ mags each for that.
I like how a liberal huffpo and washpo journalist were arrested on unconstitutional grounds and yet these same liberal journalists will scream “Only the police and military should have guns!”…. Hmm… Maybe this will change thier tune? Probably not. Bloody Hippocrates.
And just what do you have against Hippocrates, sir?
Don’t you know? Hippocrates was always telling his patients to do one thing for their health and then he himself was doing the exact opposite.
/sarcasm
WaPo is soiling themselves.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html
Their heads are exploding because they don’t know which way to jump.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/08/14/how-social-media-freed-reporters-wesley-lowery-and-ryan-reilly-from-ferguson-police/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/14/missouri-highway-patrol-to-take-over-security-in-ferguson/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-speaks-about-shooting-of-michael-brown-in-ferguson-mo/2014/08/14/d49f63ac-23c7-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/14/holder-criticizes-police-response-in-ferguson-says-he-is-deeply-concerned-about-use-of-military-equipment/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/08/14/military-veterans-see-deeply-flawed-police-response-in-ferguson/
And here’s what’s on the top of the HuffPo page:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/jay-nixon-ferguson-security_n_5679774.html
GOV. GIVES SWAT TEAMS THE BOOT
OBAMA: Justice Department, FBI Looking Into Michael Brown Death… ‘No Excuse For Excessive Force’ Against Protestors… Holder: ‘Deeply Concerned’ About Deployment Of Military Equipment… BAGHDAD USA: Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, Reporters Arrested… Police Chief: If You Get Tear-Gassed, It’s Your Own Fault… 2 More Reporters Threatened With Arrest… Police Armies In America… Rand Paul: Demilitarize Cops… LATEST…
Just amazing.
In the olden days the state would just have called up the National Guard to stick knives into disorderly people. With snipers to shoot any shooters. And machine guns to handle the overflow. Funny how the constitution only protects the right to peaceably assemble.
Somewhere, Dom Rasso is recording a video about being blind and not seeing the problem with militarized police.
Spent 2 hours yesterday debating a Lefty about why the Open Carry, Pro2A crew was not heading down to STL and bringing their guns to defend the “protesters” – “As they did for the Bundy Ranch”. (yes, ignoring all of the huge differences in situation, gun owner’s rights to not come to the defense of random people they do not know and/or disagree with in motive, action, etc)
After a long “dialog” (him going around in circles, moving his point around) it finally came down to his real belief about why that might be: because the Bundy Ranch folks are white/rural and the STL folks are black/inner city.
Basically accusing us of being Racists while himself displaying his racism against gun owners (OFWG syndrome, again) culminating (FINALLY!) with this statement that OC/Pro2A is a rich, white people club & clearly that explains everything.
It was a pretty good thread, I’ll post it for anyone who wants to review/make commentary.
I’d say this guy’s position is pretty typical of the Leftist viewpoint.
It’s a fair question. There is as much or more government overreach and violation of constitutional rights going on here as there was at the Bundy Ranch. I don’t think race is the answer, but I do think the folks that tend to get riled up about government “tyranny” are pretty selective in the tyranny they get riled up about.
There are two big differences betw Bundy Ranch & Ferguson
Bundy Ranch:
1. Peaceful protest no attacking police, other citizens or someone else’s personal property.
2. “Law-breaking” consisted of various people’s interpretation of a vague, centuries-old grazing rights issue (victimless crime at the end of the day.)
Ferguson:
1. Anything but peaceful: violently attacking police, other citizens & their personal property.
2. Wanton, observable law-breaking including looting (stealing), attacking others (violence) all Crimes which make the “protesters” into criminals.
No it’s not a fair question. It’s a stupid question. I’m sick of idiotic attempts at moral equivalence.
If the people in Ferguson are rioting because the kid got shot and they are pissed off at the PD, then why are they burning and looting businesses in their own community?
Why not go after the PD? If their beef is with unfair treatment from a government entity, why are they taking it out on their neighbors and not the government entity?
That’s the reason *I* won’t stand with rioters in a situation like this…because they are RIOTERS.
What violence did the folks at Bundy’s ranch perpetrate? What businesses were they burning, or theft of private property did they commit?
Answer: NONE.
It has F-all to do with race. It’s behavior. The behavior in Ferguson does not match the claimed outrage.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly.
The problem w/ arguing “moral equivalence” w/ Lefties is they have no capability of differentiating between what happened at Bundy Ranch vs what is happening at Ferguson, other than one is a set of older, white, rich men and the other is a set of young inner city minority youth.
No capacity. So I don’t try to argue that w/ Lefties – much better to lead them along until they reveal their racism, classism and internal moral hypocrisy, like they always do given enough rope to swing on.
To summarize:
Tyranny against people who look like me = Always very bad!
Tyranny against people who don’t look like me = Why should I care/They had it coming.
That’s flat out bullspit and you know it.
Read the comments on any of 100 topics on TTAG and you will that thesis revealed as the lie it is. Folks here are against tyranny and oppression of any stripe to any person.
If you are going to try to troll, at least use something that has a prayer of standing as believable and not so easily debunked.
You manage to mimic almost word for word the dumb Lefty I ate for lunch on Twitter yesterday.
Good job!
Twitter discussion (just one example of several threads):
https://twitter.com/minasmith64/status/499673776460537856
https://twitter.com/minasmith64/status/499679219530481670
https://twitter.com/minasmith64/status/499680417096544257
He is so completely clueless to how blatant his display of racism was, he chased me for over an hour begging me to explain to him why I declared him a racist. Doh! Lefties are dumb.
OC/Pro2A is a rich, white people club
Is your friend under the impression that blacks can’t legally own guns today?
No he’s just your average Elitist, Racist Lefty projecting his disgusting opinions onto us.
That last one (provided it is deliberate as described) reminds me of what a modern American version of “Tank Man” from Tienanmen Square would look like.
Hey swap our saps for ur riot geared police any day you dont enjoy real law enforces ask ur president to swop them for zumas we stand by and watch rampent riots and do nothing saps . I be complimenting them for acting on urban terorism not bad mouth them
It’s hard to trust the news reports about Ferguson when most of the outlets have pretty much convicted the cop of a racially motivated murder without any motive, evidence, or trial. To me it sounds like the guy was simply defending himself from an attacker going for his gun. Everything I’ve seen since seems filtered through the HuffPost or Daily Kos instigation machines.
Yes, exactly, this cannot be emphasized enough. Many of the journalists are leftist provocateurs who came to Ferguson with an agenda. They don’t even have to do much, just knowing they are there and typing is enough to keep the roving gangs of vandals going. It is cover for their actions, which have jack shit to do with the dead young man. Bad shoot or not this ain’t civil disobedience, this is arson and looting.
This is the same reason soldiers don’t care for journalists in war zones. Things used to be different when journalists were properly vetted, nowadays police and soldiers aren’t just pawns of the state but the media as well. Propaganda is everywhere, every outlet has an agenda and they will twist any fact, any statement to fit that agenda.
Mass media is no longer trustworthy at all, mainstream nor alternative. The world order as we know it is falling apart and people must learn to be pragmatic and critical of all information encountered. Deceivers in high places think they can remold the world as they see fit, don’t let them remold YOUR mind.
+1000000
I’m trying very, very hard to avoid jumping to conclusions on this.
We don’t know the facts of what happened.
But, in all candor, at this point, I’m wondering if we ever will.
It is difficult to sort out what’s true and what’s biased or hyperbole, I can agree with that. Still, the Trayvon case presented the same stunted integrity and same short circuited investigation by the media, but eventually the facts came out in that case, despite the media’s best efforts to fabricate an alternate reality.
Obviously, like everyone else who was not there, I don’t know what exactly happened in this case, either. However, I’m confident that the truth will come out, regardless of who’s at fault and regardless of anyone’s efforts to thwart it.
I don’t understand them messing with the press and wearing camo. If I had to try to quell rioting and looting, however, I’d sure want armored vehicles and body armor.
Do local police units need that much gear on my dime? No
Do I think any of them have enough training to use that gear? Maybe some. It’s kinda grey for me. It would seem an overblown response, but then again were talking riots. I think more people were killed by police after the Red Sox won the series a few years back.
Rioting is a situation where police militarization is a good thing. I say if they’re fighting the police then the police should just open up on then with a .50 and see how quickly order is restored.
No. If the rioting is that bad then it’s time for the National Guard to be sent in by the Governor to assist in restoring order and free up police resources.
Then when there’s calm they can go back to doing whatever they were doing previously.
Militarized cops are not the answer. There need to be distinct, obvious lines between the military and the police.
I have no problem with them having AR-15s and an armored van or two but this camo stuff, their attitudes, and the lack of accountability are a real concern.
I don’t really buy into all the ‘police militarization’ fears but if the solution is to stop making them take all these increased missions and to go ahead and call in the actual military, I’m okay with it. Seems reasonable. But remember why we stopped wanting to do that… Kent University comes to mind. I don’t remember the last time police fired blindly into a crowd.
CONUS:
– The Chicago “Police Riot” during the RNC Convention
– The NYPD response to OWS
– The San Diego PD response to OWS
OCONUS:
– Toronto Police/RCMP response to the WTO Meeting Protests
So, you are okay with the open execution of tens or hundreds of people with no trial or due process at all?
2-1/2 and 3 inch fire hoses are very effective non-lethal riot control weapons. We don’t have to go all Fitty Cal on them.
SOME of the people caught in the .50 spray and pray may not even be doing anything.
Be careful what you wish for with stuff like this…the world has a nasty habit of biting back. Hard.
Having responded to riots in LA, I would rather be in an armored vehicle – especially if Molotov cocktails are being thrown around. Some of our patrol cars still have dents and dings from rocks and bottles from the LA Lakers championship riots.
Having said that, the arrest of news reporters should be an eye-opener even to liberal progressives regarding what happens when the State is given too much power (and has too little accountability).
Having been at the May Day riots in LA briefly (I am not LAPD, just FYI), I can say that the narrative of the story changed greatly when the LAPD became heavy-handed with the news media. Our Department subsequently left the area, and LAPD took a lot of heat (and paid a lot of money in lawsuits) for their actions.
So restoring order is an ugly business, but becomes even uglier when cops (and their management) make dirty decisions. I’m not afraid to be on video because I work with integrity. In fact I prefer being on video because it clearly shows violations taking place and exonerates me from the occasional false accusation. If these cops won’t allow video in a public place, it’s probably because they are doing dirty deeds.
“If these cops won’t allow video in a public place, it’s probably because they are doing dirty deeds.”
Watch out… El Mac will label you as anti-cop, despite the fact that you ARE a cop.
What El Mac has to say shouldn’t matter to anyone with a functioning brain.
@SteveinCO, that would cetainly disqualify you now wouldn’t it Lefty?
How did you know I was left handed?
(The other interpretation of that monicker is so ridiculous I can’t see even you pushing it out your piehole.)
@SteveinCO, no worries Boulder Boy…accept it and just cum out of the closet.
Ah, I see. Telling people El Mac isn’t worth listening to, makes one a liberal. Got it.
I underestimated how ridiculous you could be. (TTAG seems to attract people with all sorts of exceptional talents.) I’ll try not to make that mistake again.
The video is out of Police control though… it can be edited or used selectively. It is not the same as a dash cam or body mounted camera in my view. I think you are giving these professional opinion makers the benefit of the doubt when you really shouldn’t.
I’m no police officer, but I wouldn’t want to be constantly filmed by people with a hostile attitude to me while I went about my work. They can’t take cameras from everyone these days obviously, but they can restrict access to the scene by people who are only there to influence the public one way or another. The public can make up its’ mind when the riots are quelled.
You should be more focused on your work. Being in the public means you can be filmed, that’s just how it is.
So-called Journalists can take footage of an officer detaining a violent suspect, edit it to make the video look like “police brutality” and then play it on a loop for 72 hours to keep the riots going. Cha-Ching!
That is just the way you are saying it is. I’m saying no, it doesn’t have to be, just look at what they did: They arrested scum sucking journalists. Good call if you ask me, whether they were filming or not that town doesn’t need leftists tossing fuel onto the fires. We have law and order in this country, the police have a responsibility to stop arson and looting. There is nothing responsible about contemporary journalism.
Like I said, they can’t take cameras from everyone and they have to deal with it. There is no getting around that, but many of the journalists in this situation are vultures with no vested interest in the riots abating. They are essentially hostile to all property owners and good citizens in Ferguson.
“They arrested scum sucking journalists. Good call if you ask me, whether they were filming or not that town doesn’t need leftists tossing fuel onto the fires.”
I don’t like them myself but arresting journalists is going way too far. That is something tyrannies do and it should not happen in America unless they’re legitimately breaking the law.
I don’t think you’ve thought this one through enough.
Having been a cop, I can honestly say I’d have no problem be video’d.
As Accur81 mentioned above…the video protection goes both ways.
All this hiding smacks of SECRET POLICING, and that sounds too much like Secret Police to me.
I do my best to have good audio and video from my dash camera on wi-Fi microphone on my belt. Our recorders automatically activate when the red lights and / or siren goes on, a crash is detected, or when manually activated.
While I can’t control outside video and sketchy editing, I still have my own video under lock and key which I subsequent book into our evidence vault.
This is why you should be insisting MORE people bring cameras and not just the media. Hell, bring a camera yourself! Bad people with cameras can be countered by good people with cameras. Replace camera with gun in the previous sentence and isn’t that what we’ve been telling people?
How can it make up its mind if it doesn’t know what’s actually going on there?
My mom was with the Marshal’s Department in 92 and still with LASO. Dad had recently retired from West Covina and the two of us were glued to the TV the entire time since she was gone and in the middle of a shitstorm standing guard outside of Metro (pretty sure it was Metro, anyway) court. The 92 riots were still a BIG topic when I was at Rio Hondo a decade later. Truly scary time period but seems to me it was handled much better than the situation in Ferguson is.
The bricks, rocks, molotovs, and bullets appear to be coming out in response to the police show of force in Ferguson. A good friend of mine’s FIL works for STLSO and from what I am hearing second-hand, shit is getting a bit more serious than what we’re seeing from the media.
People are pissed, and until the investigation is complete none of us can say whether or not it’s righteous anger. In the meantime however, put a stop to violence where needed, but otherwise let it ride out naturally. Destruction of private property and looting is a despicable thing, but we’re seeing the more dangerous alternative play out in real-time. If some jackass throws a brick through a window and the folks start looting, a heavy police response will turn the mob violent. A police response is a threat/show of force and mobs DON’T react well, the situation is even worse here given the fact that the unrest is in response to perceived illegal action on the part of local law enforcement. Kitting out and presenting force is ONLY going to make this worse.
Back to the investigation; I’m curious not only as to what the FBI finds but when/how they release their findings. I’d be willing to put money down that if they decide this cop murdered this guy and take it to trial it’ll come out soon, but if they find the other way… We won’t hear about it for a while. Either way, the fact that there was an altercation in the patrol unit speaks volumes to me and my experience.
Matt, thanks for the insider view with LEO info. What was “the altercation in patrol unit” ?
Link to outside, or is this anecdotal via your back channel?
What I hope TTAG can do is maintain a responsible mature approach to covering this. As many have pointed out, there are outside elements exploiting this for their own agenda. Follow the reddit rss and twitter feeds, and watch raw vs edited vis on youtube to see examples. The announcement of New Black Panthers arrival and use of molotov cocktails in an organized fashion seems more than coincidental, but that is also an example of how information can be misconstrued, or worse sensationalized, to push an agenda, left or right.
Gateway Pundit also has on the ground reporting.http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/
Jim Loft has done superlative work as a blogger for years. In contrast, I am dismayed by the ugly racist overtones in comments, and mis- represent what he is about.
One lesson learned about gun truth in shootings, is wait for the facts to come out. This is also about the concern about over-militarization of police forces, which this situation is turning out to be an example. And is a worthwhile conversation, especially if we avoid circular firing squads that lefty trolls love to stir up.
As to race relations..I know its tempting to be negative and I’ve snarked here too, but I hope we agree there are too many online blogs that appeal to those with bad intentions, and I for one am going to avoid going there, and hope others agree not to stink up our house here, and avoid being drawn into that kind of conversation by those who would seek to degrade the rational discussion of facts, and deliberaely darken the “clean, well lit room” here at TTAG.
Here we go: http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/crime/2014/08/10/ferguson-police-news-conference-michael-brown/13860601/
Local story and the description of the struggle in the vehicle seems to be pretty consistent everywhere I’ve read it. KSDK has a statement in another article from the individual present with the deceased who said Brown was dragged through the window by the officer and then shot.
Personally, I think waiting for the FBI’s findings before jumping to conclusions either way is prudent. There’s a distinct lack of witnesses who don’t have a dog in the fight and it seems Ferguson PD doesn’t have audio/video equipment on their officers or in their patrol units.
We all know there are people who think that having a camera or a reporter’s credentials grants them the ability to do what they want whenever and wherever they want… that could have been the issue here.
If it was just to try and silence the press, boy, that was unwise…
It would not surprise me one bit to learn that the LAPD’s annual budgeting process includes, as a matter of routine, a line item not just for general legal expenses, but for lawsuit settlement payouts.
Then you may be surprised to learn that not only do departments have legal costs factored into their budgets, but the unions representing officers do as well. That’s just good budgeting…
It’s formally called “Fiduciary Responsibility.” Grown-ups all do it.
So, when civilians buy “tactical” clothing and gear, to go with their AR-15, we ask why the media claims it to be “Military Style”. Because in our eyes, the phrase is used to demonize items, simply because they are cosmetically similar. Yet we always stress the differences.
But when the police gear up, we use the same phrase to demonize them? “Military style” vehicles, clothing and weapons are the cause for police militarization, and that is a bad thing. But those same things in the hands of a civilian are perfectly acceptable. Is it because civilians do not become militarized?
Generalizing the police as bad guys does us no good. And when we put forth the idea that a trained law enforcement officer is less equipped to make proper use of these items than say, your average Call of Duty playing college student who spends his excess tuition on an AR and plate carrier… Well, it makes me question where the problem really is.
While total militarization of the police is a bad thing, bringing military discipline, tactics, and training certainly are not. We look to these men and women to protect, to respond, to be our second line of defense. (Ourselves being the first, naturally.) Yet we are somehow against them having the best tools for the job?
The solution is not in pissing and moaning about cops in MRAPs, wearing armor… you know, during riots where civilians are trying to burn them to death and shoot down helicopters. Rather than demanding that the police NOT have the gear, the solution is to go forth and demand that they have proper training. Not only in the use of these items, but also better training in human interaction and communication.
I strongly disagree that MRAPs, tear gas, rubber bullets, sniper rifles, camouflage uniforms, etc. are the best tools to quell civil unrest after the police shoot an un-armed teenager. Stationing patrol officers outside local businesses would have the done the job quite well.
As far as I can tell, there were maybe five businesses that were looted, and that all happened on the first night. The police response is conflict escalation, not de-escalation.
You should not see a scene like that last picture in a free society where the police are supposed to be civil servants answerable to elected officials.
Wasn’t it a shooting by a patrol officer that started all of this? If I recall the story, the dead young man allegedly attacked the officer and either tried to get his weapon or his squad car or both.
Maybe that was a factor when they decided to bring in the heavy gear? You know, the fact that these thugs simply are not intimidated by everyday patrol officers, especially when they have numbers on their side?
Yup. When you’ve got one officer with a sidearm, he’s a LOT more likely to have to use it than three officers with a pepperball gun, beanbag shotgun and rifle.
For all the squealing there’s only been one more officer-involved shooting despite quite a bit of violence. That’s pretty surprising, really.
@Sean N, you are to be commended for introducing logic into this discussion.
So, when civilians buy “tactical” clothing and gear, to go with their AR-15, we ask why the media claims it to be “Military Style”. Because in our eyes, the phrase is used to demonize items, simply because they are cosmetically similar. Yet we always stress the differences.
But when the police gear up, we use the same phrase to demonize them?
Because when we BUY FROM THE STORE “military style” equipment it isn’t issued to us by the US Government. When the police are issued (for a nominal sum or granted outright) ACTUAL MILITARY EQUIPMENT FROM THE BATTLEFIELD it’s a rather different situation. The police equipment comes from both DoD and DHS; ours comes from Sunny’s Surplus and Cabela’s. Entirely different stuff.
Understand now?
Along the same lines, police are supposed to be servants of the People, operating on privilege. Non-agents of government operate on rights. There is a huge difference. It is entirely appropriate for the People to demand that agents of government cease wearing certain clothes or using certain gear. The same is not true in regards to non-agent citizens.
You can buy military clothes, “hi-cap” mags, rifles, vests etc as far as I’m concerned. But if you go around parading in the public in them, I’ll call you an idiot. And if you aim that rifle at me, I’ll shoot you, and any court in this country will consider it reasonable self-defense.
When a cop is dressed in military clothes, carrying a rifle, with 8 mags in pouches on him, and a class 4 vest with side protection (against a bunch of protesters who haven’t fired a single shot so far, I must add) – I’ll call him a dangerous idiot. Even more so seeing how he has authority, granted by the state, to actually use all that stuff, with very little accountability as to how it ends up being used.
When it escalates to militarized police being met by an armed public, it will be a game changer.. But a more realistic approach will be when police ask taxpayers for more funding and they get a big fat NO….
This taxpayer would be more than happy to fund wearable cameras, but that’s it.
Law Enforcement 101, at least 25 years ago when I did it, forbids tacticool, armored vehicles, patrol dogs, and long rifles during protests. It almost always makes it worse. This is a police response that may be out of control, but of course, it is hard to be an armchair quarterback.
I’m split on this one. I generally fall on the side of police (civilians with badges) don’t need military equipment or tactics. However, once again another momma’s angel, aspiring doctor who was going to cure cancer, gentle giant, etc etc has wound up dead after fighting with a police officer (this confirmed by almost every whitness now) and the community descend into chaos and animalistic behavior in the name of “justice”. They call for peace and justice and yet are tweeting pictures of the police chiefs house threatening to assault him if he doesnt release the name of the officer involved… presumably because they want to send some other angelic gentle giants to read the bible with him or some BS.
If I were a cop there I would be just about sick of this nonsense. This is one of their friends and co-workers who yet again is being tried in the court of media and public opinion and found guilty with only evidence being provided by people against him. People unrelated to the incident are having their lives threatened because of this nonsense. The media who have whipped this into hysteria and the people who associate “revenge” with “Justice” and “peace” with “looting, burning, destroying, and generally being hooligans” are out in full force taking advantage of this. I would put my foot down if I was a cop. This story happens hundreds if not thousands of times a year in this country and bully for them for finally saying “enough!”.
Do they need snipers and tactical gear? Your feelings on that probably depends on how close you live to this area, and how many of your family members have had their lives threatened in the name of “justice and peace”. Do you think the owner of the QT that these goons torched wishes there had been an MRAP out front when all this went down? He will get insurance money at some point, sure, but right now he gets to sit on his hands and wait , and then only until the next incident.
And lets all be honest, if they didnt have all their M4’s and body armor, and MRAPS they would call the National Guard in to deal with this mess… and you would be complaining about that too, so…
“this confirmed by almost every witness now”
Wow, are you involved in this investigation? Have you interviewed “amost every witness”?
I’m amazed at how TTAG comments seems to have such close information about the investigation.
Go read the news and take some Midol while you are at it… my comment was only intended to show that even the people accusing the cop of cold blooded murder are acknowledging that this “Gentle Giant” was at one point halfway inside this cops cruiser, and I doubt he was there to tell him how good his breath smells. My sources? Wall Street Journal, CNN, NYT pretty much any major news agency.
His sharing of available knowledge (despite how little) is more than your absense of sharing any knowledge by providing a smug retort. Maybe you should do some research and listen to the eyewitnesses statements directly.
Seek and ye shall find.
TEX, Anon, lets not fall into the trap of jumping to conclusions based on second hand accounts of what they say, or youtube versions. We all know that is ubject to misunderstanding, misinterpretation, not to mention credibility issues with some witnesses. Thats why we have courts and a legal process, imperfect as it is.
Armchair quarterbacking this in a webforum is not going to find the truth either.
I agree that the “facts” we have, show a pattern that does not look good, but we have enough lessons learned to know more facts will emerge, that will cast more light.
I do agree this yet another reason for police to use personal cams and dash video, and how that protects both their rights, as well as citizens, to a speedier due process under the law. Read Accur81’s posts for more ground truth on that in LA.
One of the lessons learned will include the rights of citizens to record cops in a public place. Clearly the officers in McDonalds will be the example for why more LEO training will be beneficial. Read Instapundit for a good series of articles on that, and the law, and recent ciurt cases.
One of the lessons learned will include the rights of citizens to record cops in a public place. Clearly the officers in McDonalds will be the example for why more LEO training will be beneficial
My God, how much more training on this do they need? This has gone through the courts and been discussed ad nauseam in newspapers and online for a very long time!
The cops don’t care (at least some cops). When the WaPo reporter said this would be in tomorrow’s paper, the cop said, “I don’t care, you’ll be in my jail tonight!”
You may beat the rap, but you won’t beat the ride. They laugh about it.
@RLC2
I agree. I do hope some “facts” come out of the investigation. And if guilty, as seen by numerous eyewitnesses – hopefully justice is done. In the meantime a statement made by the police, the chief, etc, indicating the shooter was arrested pending investigation (which would be standard for any of us) would be in order yea? It happened some time ago (5 days). How long does it take to make an arrest?
@Danny Griffin: Yes. This is beyond training. It’s going to take a major smack down the likes of the Bundy standoff to stop this trend.
And that smackdown must come from LOCAL courts and LOCAL politicians (i.e., mayors, city councils, and state courts and senates) rather than the Feds to be at all credible at this point.
Pay close attention, gentlemen. This is how the guys who think of themselves as “good cops” cover up for their brothers in blue. Because no matter what actually happened, a cop is always right, unless it is impossible to weasel out and/or cover up. Then he’s still right, and journalists are assholes for forcing other cops to shame him in public.
You can’t convict somebody in the court of public opinion or otherwise if you don’t know who it is. Moreover, police are rarely convicted of anything in any court, public opinion or otherwise.
Why should the shooter’s identity be a secret? When has any police officer involved in a high-profile shooting ever been attacked? These unidentified, alleged threats are not a credible threat to the officer’s safety. The public has a right to know this information. Police officers have sufficient protection from public backlash; for their personal safety, their jobs, and from personal civil liability. I’m not saying policing is not a tough job. It is, and I wouldn’t do it. However, nobody is forced to do it, and you know what you’re getting into going in.
From what I’ve seen, Al Sharpton and the other usual suspects have generally criticized the looting and called for order. Also, from what I can gather five businesses were looted on the first evening.
In my opinion, the police response is escalating the situation. I think people are taking notice and hopefully will begin a push to de-militarize policing.
Everybody knows that cops are people who could not/did not get into the Military; they are thristy to be real soldiers..!
I am usually one of the hardest around here on cops, but that is a bullshit statement.
I was in the Army, and got put out of the police academy with a pretty serious injury which resulted in permanent damage to my patella. My family has generations of police officers who became cops AFTER serving in the military. Let me tell you, sir, it’s a hell of a lot easier to get into the military than it is the average police department.
If you have a well-founded and reasonable grip with modern law enforcement, I’m all ears and may very well agree with you. But keep that garbage on Prison Planet, k?
“Grip” should read as “gripe” by the way. By the time I caught it the time to edit had expired.
I’m probably at least as hard on the cops as you are, but I fall somewhere between the two of you on this. Getting into the military in general may be easier, and far more so, than getting onto a police force, but that may not be quite the relevant comparison. It’s really more a matter of getting into Delta, Recon, Rangers, the SEALS, or other special forces units, that many of these tooled up tools fantasize about, but cannot achieve, so they settle for the local P.D.
@Jonathan:
No disagreement on the whole “operator” attitude we see too much of. I think that stems more from both police agencies (and the military) failing to weed out individuals with, and discourage the, “I want to be a hero” mindset. I’ve known a lot of Rangers, SF, a few SEALs, etc. They’re just like the rest of us, they just have/had shittier jobs that required more/different training. 😛
lol take a look at the former military makeup of most departments right now, especially those (many) with vet preferences… you have no clue.
As a vet it doesn’t make a difference, I was a grunt, I served five years, that doesn’t make me an asshole. In fact I don’t want to ride in tactical vehicles because they suck, I don’t want to wear a flak jacket because I know how much they suck, I sure as shit don’t want to carry a rifle everywhere, been there done that and got the t shirt. The fact remains being a vet doesn’t make you an asshole, you were an asshole before you became a vet.
Yeah, being a vet, all I remember from patrols with all that gung-ho gear in armoured vehicles was being hot and tired. The stuff the police get is more comfortable, as they get to pick and choose. We had to use what was issued, all built by the lowest bidder.
IMHO, when stuff like this happens, the police need their own cameras and media crew.
When things get emotional charged as they are, the media tends to play that to its fullest extent. If the police are truly just trying to contain the riots, they better have their own video because the media may spin it the wrong way.
NYPD tried that during OWS. They got called out for editing the released footage to distort reality their way, and putting everyone IDed in the footage on a watch list.
The man in the blue shirt approaching police is wearing a cabelas hat.
http://amandabrandt.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/hat-pic.jpeg
I wish I lived close to a cabelas.
Anyone else love the fact that in the last picture, the cop on the right is holding a paintball marker with the hoppper clearly visible? Hope he never forgets what gun he grabbed and shoots someone “accidentally” when he thought it was paint.
Hopper is loaded with pepper balls, no doubt.
And bless you for calling it a marker, I cringe every time I see or hear “paintball gun.”
That paintball marker is a common tool used in riot control… fires either hard rubber pellets or paintballs filled with something similar to OC spray.
I agree, would be horrible tragedy if in the heat of hte moment he grab the wrong one and went live on the crowd. The TTAG comments board would literally explode.
This is the king of gear the cops should be using.
Its loaded with paintballs filled with powdered Capsaicin
http://www.pepperball.com/projectiles/
Often used in prison riots along with sting balls.
You know, I generally don’t like police militarization, but in the scenario they find themselves up that way, I think it’s more or less required. There is no justification for what the mob is doing, period.
I don’t know the extent of what they’re doing but just looking at what’s happenings, talking about police militarization “yeah that makes sense” springs to mind.
I can’t stand lawlessness and I don’t know that arresting them all is feasible.
It’s not required, and in fact it’s actively harmful. A rifle has no place in suppressing a riot, until the rioters have guns of their own.
OMG! These MRAPS, camo pants, JP sniper rifles, and helicopters are causing these upstanding citizens to riot, again, still, always. We must ban them! These cops are so out of touch with what the fine citizens feel. The cops are CAUSING this! Ban police and no more riots will happen!
Seriously, what seperates you “OMG MRAP!” people from Shannon Watts?
Republican party affiliation, that seems to be about it.
Well, no.
I think it has more to do with how the gear will be used after the riot is over.
That, and the mindset / psychology that is being cultivated in the civilian police that they ARE a military.
Both of those are dangers. People in both parties and at both extremes of the ideological spectrum have concerns about it.
The fact that we believe individuals and the government should have the same weapons. Shannon Watts believes only the government should have weapons. When DHS sends me a free MRAP, I’ll stop bitching.
+10
I thought this site was one of the best on the web ..the users too.
Up until the last few days. lol
You know at Lunch I thought about this more, I’m not upset about tactics or equipment being used, simply that I think it should be the guard and not the police who puts it down.
Andy of Mayberry is hanging his head in shame, even Barney is ashamed to be associated with this type of LE.
Mayberry never existed. Police in that era were simply beating the crap out of black people and letting the dogs loose on them.
I grew up in NYC in that era. The cops beat the crap out of everybody that got seriously out of line. There was real Equal Opportunity in those days.
What do the police plan on doing when the jail is too full? Are they going to start gunning down members of the media and aldermen?
Breaking out all the hardware for a riot?
Good idea.
Breaking out all the hardware for a scary text message?
Bad idea.
Let’s keep a little perspective people.
Will the national guard be forced to fight the police to protect the freedom of the press?
A lot of people don’t want the police to be small military forces. Okay, why did that start to become the case? Because ‘we’ decided they should take on wars. The war on drugs. The war on terrorism. And even worse, situations like this, that are actually similar to a battle (once the molotov cocktails come out, police are no longer acting in an investigative role).
So, okay. If you don’t want police to be armed like the military, or have armored cars, or whatever, let’s skip all that. Just call out the national guard. But for some reason we’re afraid to do that…
They became militarized in a response to riots like this. I said it up above and I’ll say it again here, if the police have nothing more than a hi-cap 9 and maybe a remington 870 and an NIJ level two vest, then they will just call the national guard in a situation like this. And you know what, the same people complaining about militarized police would just complain that they called the national guard. Some people just like to complain.
I for one, if I was in this situation would just want my goddamn town back from these do nothing, worthless hooligans who demonstrate that they want peace by resorting to violence and destroying other peoples’ stuff.
The people would complain, and rightly so. Has there been an armed revolt in the area? Are there thugs running around with guns and slaughtering citizens?
Vandalism and looting is not good, but you don’t need a military to deal with that.
Really, tell that to the citizens of Watts in 1965, Detroit in 1967 and many cities in the wake of the MLK assassination,
Tell that to the owner of the QT these animals torched and then took over as their rallying point for the subsequent nights of “protesting”.
You don’t have to kill someone to ruin their life. If the owner was like any service station/ convenience store owner I have ever met they probably have (had) a very large percent of their livelihood invested in that store. Yes he will get insurance money, eventually, after heavy deductibles, but who is going to feed their family and those who depended on income from the store while he rebuilds? Who will pay the salaries of those who worked there in the months it will take to rebuild? What about all the overhead/credits he had for stuff like the gas in the underground storage tanks that cant be pumped out as long as the storefront is closed?
You know what screw these assholes… seriously, anyone so base as to resort to violence and lawlessness when they are unhappy is no better than animals escaped from the zoo.
I agree. Taken at face value, the first image shows a guy with his hands up, walking down a public street, with several combat-clad officers pointing rifles at him…has the constitution been suspended in this town and marshal law declared? maybe this would be a good place for a OC demonstration and see what results – assuming the constitution is still in force.
I think you are on to something there Hannibal. I would like to ask you a couple of straight-up questions if I could. I’m old enough to remember the race riots and antiwar riots in the late 60s and early 70s. The cops geared up with face plates on motorcycle helmets, shields, and big batons backed up with shotguns. If they couldn’t handle it, the Guard was called in. Do you think the present practice of cops gearing up like soldiers, carrying semi-auto “patrol rifles” and walking along beside light armored vehicles, is significantly more effective? About the same? Or less? Not being rhetorical here, really seeking your thoughts. And one more, though it’s really probably not that significant, but it certainly attracts notice–what IS it with the camo in town? Are they getting free stocks of it along with the other gear or what?
The problem is that they start gearing up right away. Basically, as soon as things aren’t tranquil, you’ve got all these pictures of what looks like an occupying army on the streets. And that’s bad, because it makes residents (most of which aren’t looters) feel like they are in Baghdad or some such – and they will vent that anger on the police, further blowing up the riots.
This notion of going all in from the get-go is deeply flawed. Do read what Norm Stamper wrote and said on the subject – he is the guy from the “other side” with plenty of personal experience.
This is really easy people. Instead of cladding up in kneepads, sniper rifles, military helmets and camo(? yes camo) – how about we address the real problem. The problem is – a unarmed 18 year old was shot and killed by police. The rioting community wants justice and they aren’t getting it.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/14/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html
I’m confused why the officer continued to fire at the 18 year old after he put his hands up. Multiple eyewitnesses corroborated the same details of the shooting. Police said he tried to enter the police cruiser. Eye witnesses said that never happened. Police say he was trying to grab the officer’s weapon – eye witnesses saw otherwise. It was clear to the eyewitnesses that the 18 year old was trying to get away from the cops. Shooting him was uncalled for – particularly continuing to shoot him after he raised his hands.
Give the people justice and the riots will stop.
Again, how amazing that anonymous people around here seem to be aware of so many facts in an ongoing investigation.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/14/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html
Watch the video – Listen to the eyewitnesses. Judge for yourself.
The problem, of course, is the investigation will take time.
The mob is not patient, and mob rule is not wise, nor just. Read your history.
If the mob uses illegal action, destruction of property, looting, throwing bricks, molotov cocktails, then the mob loses ANY legitimacy for deciding what is just or not. Harder to find in the many left-leaning videos that seem to be more about inciting the mob, but they are there; local residents, black and white, telling their neighbors and outsiders to stop, stop ruining the neighborhood, and the community. This is a trragedy on many levels.
And when those from out of town have gotten their views, youtube likes, and shares, for their own ego, the folks in Ferguson and surrounding wil still be left with the mess they created, for years to come.
According to the same media this racist white guy named George Zimmerman tracked down a poor innocent black child going out for skittles and Arizona Ice tea and shot him in cold blood. Must have been true, because I saw it on CNN and NBC.
Somehow i think the only reason that many of you backed Zimmerman was because he was not an agent of the government. Had he been a cop in exactly the same circumstances you would all be screaming about police militarization and calling for his execution.
This case is completely different with multiple eyewitnesses. The vocation of the shooter does not matter (or should not).
There were witnesses to parts of the Zimmerman-Martin confrontation as well. Just like this shooting. Nobody saw how it started.
Parts. Unlike this shooting.
I am looking for the source but there apparently is a third party witness that say the kid scuffle with the cop and go for his gun in the car.
The Mob doesn’t care about “Justice” they just want blood. They didn’t even wait for the investigation. Not to excuse the actions of the police there, but I have no sympathy for these outsiders who come into the community and riot because of an opportunity and excuse.
Theft and destruction of property is wrong. I don’t support that. A good question might be… why are they rioting? Is it because they have to make a big scene and grab a lot of attention in order to get some justice? If justice was guaranteed – no riots would have begun.
“a unarmed 18 year old was shot and killed by police.”
I keep harping on this point because it is very very important.
Being unarmed does not directly mean deadly force was not justified.
We simply do not know the facts of what happened. Eyewitnesses can be mistaken in what they think they saw or they could be outright lying. Or, their version could be correct. We just don’t know.
But the kid being “unarmed” is not the most important piece of information. What matters is if there was a credible threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury.
I really wish people would stop with the ‘unarmed’ part because it is mostly an irrelevancy. Depending on the totality of circumstances, being unarmed is COMPLETELY irrelevant.
People REALLY need to read Graham vs Connor. Good grief, folks, this stuff is VERY important to ALL OF US, not just cops.
Maybe the kid threatened to shoot the cop and the cop had no reason to disbelieve that the kid was armed at the time.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/14/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html
This is why there are rioters. You should be protesting the police activity as well.
I have personally taken statements from people, and I can tell you some tell the truth (as they saw it), some tell the truth (as they want it to be), some didn’t really “see” anything but make statement anyway, and other outright lie. That’s why there are investigations, you can’t simply pass judgment based on one or two witness statements, you gather as much evidence as you can and then attempt to recreate the incident.
Someone might say subject B started a fight, because they didn’t see subject A throw the first punch, they only turned around after they heard all the shouting, to them, subject B started it, and it’s the truth, but in this scenario it isn’t accurate. I’ve also taken statements from people who were collaborating with the subject, that person will swear up and down his/her friend didn’t do “it”, outright lying.
I’ll wait for the trial to hear the evidence and not let the media claim their early reporting of second hand information is undeniable fact. Wow, I almost agree with McCain on something.
What Trial???
I Agree with your other statements. That is why the cop that did the shooting should have been tackled and arrested on the spot by other police officers. He should have ridden in the back of the police cruiser (handcuffed) to the station and thrown in a cell booked on murder charges pending an investigation. We should have a trial where each of the eyewitnesses come forth and provide their eyewitness testimony. The jury can deliberate and reach a conclusion on guilty or innocent based upon trial evidence.
The question is… Is this happening? Which one of the cops crossed the blue line to arrest the individual who eyewitnesses claim “murdered” the 18 year old? When is this happening?
Instead they have to leave it to this:
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25574-anonymous-releases-name-of-alleged-michael-brown-shooter-sets-deadline-for-st-louis-police-response
Exactly… the “witnesses” who claim this guy was just standing there doing nothing 20 ft away from the police officer are the same lawless goons running around torching convenience stores and looting businesses, so I have no reason to believe any of them are telling the truth.
The only witness from that CNN story I even give a shred of credibility is the one who had a birds eye view of the situation and filmed the aftermath with their phone and said something to the affect that they saw Brown in the vehicle wrestling (she said almost like they were arm wrestling), then a shot rings out, then Brown runs and cop exits vehicle and guns him down. There are reports that the officer has a serious injury to his face, the autopsy has not been released for Brown so we don’t know the extent of his defensive or offensive wounds on his body, but any reasonable person can assume that he did not have his body halfway through the window of a police cruiser because he wanted to compliment the officer’s eyes.
Pretty hard to defend against the shooting the kid while he is running away, but only the evidence and time will tell why that happened.
How do you know the witnesses are the same people who did the looting? Or do you just mean they look kind of the same, so that’s close enough?
One of the witnesses is a jaywalker. Another was just driving her car and another was walking to her apartment. How do you know that any of them are torching convenience stores and looting? That is a very broad analysis to justify they are not “telling the truth.” Wild statement man.
VERY GOOD for the cops , crack heads big time and save lives and stop this lawless riots now, if you don’t it will grow and spread.. to a town need you soon…
Or maybe even to your very own skull one day.
RACE is not a issue in a Riot, mine or the other guys , having been in the middle of a real RIOT , you see how fast it gets out of control , A riot is man kind at his worse ….. No longer right or wrong,,,, and yes only fast action cracking heads and lowering the numbers of the riot fast, (off to jail) saves lives and saves homes and stores etc… looting/rape/murder/firebanding/ hurting anyone etc. And as for the media they add gas to any fire like the want to see it get worse in reporting NEVER EVER TRUST the controlled media lies too…and i hope the cops bust all the media heads …THE MEDIA IN AMERICA is the biggest pack RATS to ever walk the earth….
I’ve had years of riot control training and from what I’ve seen the police in Ferguson haven’t had any. A relatively small group of officers working as a team can control an army of riotous individuals. All the crap the officers are bringing to the fight are unnecessary. We had a crash cart that had everything needed for riot control. In addition to a sidearm you needed a shield, baton, helmet with face shield to protect you from BFR’s (big fu***ng rocks), a gas mask and flex cuffs. Now put your shields together, do the stomp shuffle, give the rioters an avenue of retreat and have a team behind your main line to apply flex cuffs to stragglers . I have first hand experience with the effectiveness of these techniques. What I see in Ferguson is a bunch of officers acting as individuals and playing dress up. Sorry but you guys aren’t “operators” your cops.
Thanks. This reminds me of an understanding you come to if you go beyond simply buying a gun for personal protection, and go to the range once or twice a year, vs do more to train for real world scenarios, including firing on move, etc as RF has written upon here.
Its easy and relatively inexpensive to buy army surplus gear, and accessories for weapons. Its much harder, time and money wise to use them effectively, and to take that a bit further, training with another as a team, husband-wife, frienfs and neighbors in even the basics of how to defend outside your home.
And as a trainer poinred out, training is perishable.
Now, apply to a smaller town or county, where thecreal need for urban riot control is low, but the need to be properly trained is high. MRAPs are very cheap up front, and I would guess the military style equipment and clothes the same. Much more expensive to buy completely different style, color, and train for use of riot gear. For budget concious PD chiefs and city or county pols, its easier to buy the cheap stuff and try to make do.
But none of it works without repeat teaing, and especially in grups, including multi agency command and control, in staged exercises. The military does this because its their full time job to train. Cops have a much harder time doing so because they are on the street keeping the peace.
Its very hard even impossible to do both, well. Look at how the USMC adapted to Iraq, first as tip of the spear warriors, then as peacekeepers, and now shifting back to expeditionary warfare.
Its a really tough problem, and hopefully some lesons learned about the true costs of free gear will come out of this.
Civilization didn’t start this war, barbarity did. And I know which team I’m rooting for, even if I have concerns about their methods, tools and tactics.
Discussing methods, tools and tactics is a luxury for those who enjoy the benefits of civilization.
I rarely respond on TTAG but I read a lot. I just feel that simple things would keep both this shooting and the Trayvon Martin shooting an in-house/city/county matter. I think if the officer in this shooting would have been suspended with out pay until the investigation is over or if George Zimmerman was actually arrested at first questioned then let go a lot of the uproar would not have happened. The blatant disregard for lives of black youth is where I feel the main issue is. On this site for example the guy that got shot in Walmart with an air rifle post. You see in the comments section that well he had rap sheet so he must have been doing unlawful in Walmart when he was shot. The riots and civil unrest is just the boiling over of citizens tired of taking this stuff lying down. I feel it’s the same with the thing that happened at the Bundy ranch. People got tired of see the gov trying to strong arm the guy and went out to push back. Sadly I don’t think it’s gonna get any better before it gets way worse. Just my 2 cents.
“The blatant disregard for lives of black youth is where I feel the main issue is. ”
I agree. It is a tragedy how little the Black community itself cares about the lives of black youth.
@PTM, “It is a tragedy how little the Black community itself cares about the lives of black youth.”
AMEN
“I think if the officer in this shooting would have been suspended with out pay until the investigation is over or if George Zimmerman was actually arrested at first questioned then let go a lot of the uproar would not have happened. ”
That is called kowtowing. The Police do not do that, they can’t afford to, it would undermine their role in society. Do they immediately suspend every officer who has to shoot someone? Do they arrest every beaten man who has obviously just defended himself in a life or death situation? Is this only if it is a white man who shot a black man?
You need to get real. The people rioting and looting would do it no matter what, they are poor and in some cases pretty desperate one way or another. Many are motivated by racist ideology that gives them blinders. I don’t blame some of these folks for being ignorant because it has been shoved down their throats their entire lives, but when that ignorance gives way to anti-social violence then it is time to release the hounds.
I don’t see anything different here than I saw growing up in the 60’s in Watts, Detroit or the MLK riots. They brought actual military forces to put those riots down. Brush up on your history before you start talking about how this is somehow different than what we experienced in the past. You had the 82nd Airborne patroling the streets of Detroit in 1967.
Thanks. And note early on the LAPD was ordered to simply stay out of parts of the area. The Korean shopkeepers were on their own for a couple days. The mob did ugly things, post Rodney King, too.
Remember Reginald Denny?
That was 1992 and the police inaction was based on “lessons learned” from the Watts Riots.
Thanks, I conflated the two. Know your history is easy to say harder to do..:(
Anyone aware of an ineependent study, book, or resource that would be useful to inform readers here, omn the history of modern US police responce to urban mob violence? I’d guess this might be something offered to LEO senior officers and execs at FBI Academy, for example…but anything out there open source, on Scribd, Amazon, etc.
Who trusts the police?
In the halcyon days of my misspent youth, when I was trained to be a constable, folks trusted police to do the right thing. We were part of the community. Cops wore uniforms like the postal service, drove regular cars like everybody else, carried revolvers, and were all about keeping the peace. Now, we’ve got a warrior cop culture, no-knock raids, desert fatigues, face masks, battlefield weapons, SUV’s painted to look like Darth Vader’s battle cruiser, ‘revenue’ quotas, warrantless stop-and-frisk searches, asset forfeiture, and a trail of dead family pets.
I would love to see cops lose the military crap; stop acting like an occupying force; stop their focus on squeezing revenue out of taxpayers through red light cams, speed traps, and highly questionable asset forfeitures; and become part of their communities.
So – who trusts the police? Yutes of all races? OFWGs? Liberals? Conservatives? Nope, nope, nope, and nope. It seems to me that if citizens don’t trust you, you’re not police – you’re an occupying army.
Based on the comments, it seems like lots of OFWGs and conservatives trust the police as long as the police are doing their thing to non-OFWGs and non-conservatives. What could possibly go wrong with that line of thinking?
it seems like lots of OFWGs and conservatives trust the police
Believe me, there are a lot of OFWG and conservatives who don’t trust the police.
@TT Really? I don’t see many comments saying “It’s perfectly fine as long as the militarized police keep the black man down.” In fact I see more, “Cops shouldn’t be militarized when there are plenty of other options that will better defuse the situation.”
Moron.
@TT – That’s some serious extrapolation regarding motivation of posters. I’d think it difficult to determine true political affiliation and racism and even OFWG status from anonymous posts, but apparently you have a Super Power!
That said, I get what you’re saying – and there is some support on the thread for police v. rioters. But ten years ago, a group like this would have been 100% behind the police. Now? Not even close. We’ve got posters calling out the police for misconduct, identifying bad tactics, blaming them for escalating, wanting National Guard instead of cops, etc. On a gun oriented web site – and that’s a sea change.
The world is changing, and the old biases have to change too. Based on my experience and peer group, I believe gunnies are more libertarian than conservative, and we’re getting more diverse as well. In my past two first shooter classes for example, I had eight students – three Asian/Pacific Islanders (one of whom was female) and five Hispanic (two female). Not an OFWG to be found. Not even me…
Abunai, you make some very good and encouraging points.
This is true. The reverse is also true, unfortunately (and I say this as a liberal) – a lot of liberals don’t have anything against police being heavy-handed, so long as it’s against people like Cliven Bundy, militias, Ruby Ridge etc.
Hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call for everyone. Because if it does not, the next one will be personal – a flashbang in your bed during a mistaken no-knock raid.
So police use plate carriers, rifles and armored car’s in a situation that actually warrants their use as opposed to a no knock raid on the wrong house and you guys still call them assholes? So what are they supposed to do at riots? Not wear protective gear or just let people run amok?
“Protective gear” in the circumstances is riot armor, riot shields, and helmets. Other tools of the job would be batons, water cannons and pepper spray.
What I’m seeing is ballistic armor, military camo load-bearing vests filled to the top with 30-round 5.56 magazines, and assault and sniper rifles. And some itchy trigger finger attitude, judging by how casually they seem to be aiming at people.
This isn’t how you stop a riot. This is how you start one.
Aye! It’s almost as if they wanted to start a riot. I don’t believe that at this point but it wouldn’t take much evidence to sway my opinion. Hopefully government was just being incredibly stupid in this instance.
So let me get this straight…the phrase that is uttered around here a lot, “it’s better to have it and not need it, than to not have it when you need it” when referring to people going about thier daily lives and carrying a firearm to protect themselves in the astronomically unlkely event that it is needed only applies to that unlikely scenario.
That same attitude does NOT apply to the brave men in uniform (OMG camo pants!) going into a battle zone to restore peace to the community from the violent lawless animals that are out of control. Ok…got it. In fact, the animals would just stop rioting if the police didn’t roll up in scary trucks.
TTAG Demands Action Against MRAPS!
LOL
It has nothing to do with trucks and everything to do with murder and the thin blue line.
It must be a reading comprehension problem and headline only reading.
The post asks the following questions:
So the question is, does this militarized police response help matters in Ferguson or hurt them? And will it halt or accelerate the march of police militarization across the U.S.? The fact that the police are mostly white (Ferguson PD has three black officers in a force of 52) and that the community is mostly black (67.4 percent African American) will no doubt inflame this debate. But is it too late?
Your reply is a leap of unknown conclusion
Dom Raso’s advice (probably) for Missouri: “More MRAPs, crush everything.”
I just had an image of Dom Rasso stepping on a human skull, crushing it, then pan view upwards into his eyes that are glowing red, as the Terminator theme plays, and his face turns to metal, and behind him are an army of him, with Putin standing behind them all. I don’t know why Putin is there. Maybe because it just fits….
The United States Constitution explicitly provides for ‘the right of the people to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances'” in the First Amendment. So how do they justify arresting people for “illegal assembly”?
There is no justification required – only your compliance is required.
Same way they justify permits for the 2nd. The Bill of Privileges is just a fairy tale told to children.
I never knew that peaceful assembly included looting.
Just like how some people’s misuse of firearms justifies the government taking yours away. The police response is not limited to looters. If it was, you would have a point. But it wasn’t.
Civil order has broken down so no one has a unvarnished right to walk the streets without challenge.
Got to maintain that precious civil order at all costs, rights be damned.
Looting is not peaceable assembly. However that is not what we are talking about is it? We are talking about peaceable assembly. Journalists were inside a McDonalds recharging their cell phones and recording the incident. They were told by the police to stop recording. They didn’t leave the McDonalds fast enough when requested and were arrested on trespassing charges. However in the photos and videos, it is very clear that the McDonalds is in operation with employees in the back. The police can arrest anyone at any time without fear of penalty. Applying the charge “trespassing” is without merit as there was no complaint made by McDonalds. More of the police overstepping their bounds.
Arresting them on a false charge is illegal and the cops risk getting charged with kidnapping since the very definition of kidnapping is the moving of a person from one location to another location against their will without lawful authority. The police had no lawful authority to arrest the members of the press.
I bet that if you were in proximity to this kind of breakdown in public order and you saw someone who you didn’t think belonged there you and your other neighbors would be checking them out but that’s ok because you are private citizen so the Bill of Rights doesn’t apply to you and your merry band of neighborhood protectors.
Typical keyboard commando/range cowboy.
The police response was/is determined by management, not the individual cop.
They are told how, when and where. I’ll put money the mayor all the way up to the governor knew about the police response before it happened.
There’s a lobbyist in Washington buying rounds of golf and much more for the Congressmen, their aides, and the military and civil servant people encouraging them to give military hardware to civil police. Of course you realize he works for the manufacturers of these products. SPARE PARTS AND REPAIRS WILL COST these agencies a fortune.
So a couple of questions to the general population here,
Do you want the law enforcement personnel to have access to the same things you have?
If not, why not?
If you want to possess a military grade rifle, be it an AR clone, high performance target/hunting/sniper rifle, or a handgun with standard count magazines greater than a revolver it is a right but if the people that have been hired to protect those both with and without those items have them it is militarization? Why?
This can be easily extended as the population at large has the ability to purchase ‘military grade’ equipment from many retailers and the government itself through auctions and many do.
Many departments were flooded with purchasing power after the 9/11 attacks and told to gear up as they could be the next front line in a war to PROTECT the american citizen. They did.
Many departments have been cut off and now find they can only get second hand ‘military grade equipment as their budgets have been slashed but told they must maintain that capability by the ELECTED officials that have slashed the budgets.
Supreme court ruling found police have no duty to protect.
I have no problem with police having MRAPs.
• I have a problem with police mentality changing from public servants to militants following orders.
• I have a problem with police not knocking on your door, but smashing it in and running inside with barrels pointed in your face.
• I have a problem with police arresting journalists in a McDonalds in Ferguson, MO because they didn’t follow their orders fast enough.
• I have a problem with police ordering said journalists to stop filming and turn off the recorders.
• I have a problem with police ordering said journalists to leave the vicinity (a private establishment) or be arrested.
• I have a problem with police arresting journalists in a McDonalds on the basis of “trespassing” when no complaint whatsoever has been made by the owning establishment.
• I have a problem with police getting mad at 18 year olds that don’t follow their orders and shoot them in the back while they run away (if this is the case).
• I have a problem with police repeatedly shooting 18 year olds who are unarmed, have their hands up, but yet are repeatedly being shot (if this is the case).
• Lastly, I have a problem with police thinking they can order people anywhere to do anything they want, and if they don’t do it, they slap them with one of the following catch-alls: Trespassing, obstruction of justice, failure to follow a lawful order.
Because I’m not actively required, by my line of duty, to use these tools every day. I have 3 ARs – they live in my closet most of the time, and occasionally I take them out to the range. If someone breaks into my apartment, I might use them for self-defense, but I don’t go out into the streets and aim them and suspicious people. Furthermore, if I do aim and shoot someone, I’m getting into prison for life, not being suspended without pay for a month or two and then quietly reinstated.
I’m not at all against cops having ARs and other such things for their personal use, same as any other citizen. But in the course of their job, when they have extra authority to use violence, I want them to not have the tools that multiply that violence, or that subtly or not-so-subtly provoke its use. A baton is better than a gun, and a gun is better than a MRAP.
Oh, and please, no bullshit about slashed budgets. If you compare the amount that police gets today to what it has been 30 years ago, it’s more than an order of magnitude difference (all while violent crime is at an all-time lows). So excuse me if I don’t care that the sheriff can’t buy another tacticool toy.
This situation arises out of 40 years of liberal catering to poverty pimps and “community organizers,” and conservatives being scared of being called “racists” by liberals on the subject.
Inner cities in the US are filled with a feral black youth culture that is ready to boil over for reasons that can be trumped up in a day. Since the LA Rodney King riots, that reason is invariable some young man (who invariably was “turning his life around” or was a “good boy” and so on, as sworn by all his maternal relatives) getting crosswise with law enforcement and getting beat or shot.
Then his fellow feral black youth start whipping up crowds into a frenzy, and suddenly everything at the local retail establishments is on a literal fire sale.
We got to this point by creating welfare policies that reward women for having more children out of wedlock, and even worse, by providing financial rewards for getting the father out of the domicile.
So you get what we have here: A bunch of feral youths, with no strong male presence in their community other than other, more feral, older males. These young males are without jobs or even job prospects, thanks in large part waves of immigration taking most of the jobs since 2000, and in another part due to the mythology of “free trade” and the off-shoring of the American economy, which has been brought to us by the “conservative” end of the political spectrum.
All of this has been brewing for decades.
But now we have an administration in power who is ready to appease and cater to this population cohort like no other prior administration, and which is cynical enough to play both sides of the riots (the rioters and the police) to create what leftists love: a big crisis, which they won’t allow to go to waste. As of this moment, the FBI is taking control of all operations in Ferguson, and the DOJ has sent in their professional instigators to the mix.
There’s no clean, easy short-term solution to what’s happening in Ferguson. But as I’ve said before, the cops are not covering themselves with glory, and when you see both conservatives and liberals calling for legislation at a federal level to “de-militarize law enforcement,” we can safely assume that the cops have scored an “own goal” with their behavior.
If you’re calling unarmed black men “feral black youth” or “feral older males”, you’re a strong part of the problem. It shows that you’ve dehumanized your countrymen, and that’s an essential first step to supporting (or taking part) in any attempt to eliminate or oppress them. You view African-Americans as animals and subhumans. You are not anyone’s ally unless they’re wearing a sheet with a pointed hood.
You’re full of shit John. Maybe the words hurt your feelings but the facts speak for themselves. I am far from racist, but living between Philly and Baltimore I know what it is like in those cities and everything DG said is accurate. Maybe when you get clobbered for your wallet or shoes you will understand. It ain’t about race, but you can’t deny what is right in front of your face.
WRT the FBI taking control:
FBI warns New Black Panther leader in Ferguson inciting violence
http://www.linkedin.com/e/v2?e=914wn-hyuhob0j-1t&t=gde&midToken=AQGHoNju-c87Mg&ek=b2_anet_digest&li=4&m=hero&ts=hero-disc-disc-0&itemID=5905665463542640640&itemType=member&anetID=38907
Here it comes, Midwest…
That’s a linkedin URL.
Here ya go:
http://fox2now.com/2014/08/14/video-protesters-take-over-ferguson-police-chiefs-news-conference/
Source footage.
I didn’t like the early reports and photo of officers using police dogs right at the front line of peaceful protesters. The officer in the photo was not in riot gear so he couldn’t reasonably fear these people as rioters. The protesters didn’t seem like the rioting types either. AFAIK, law enforcement wasn’t trying to move the protesters back or anything. From my limited point of view, it seemed like pure intimidation of a small group of peaceful protesters.
FWIW, http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/missouri-state-senator-says-she-was-gassed-in-ferguson-asked
During the event, Missouri State Senator Maria Chappelle-Nadal, said she was among the peaceful protestors who were hit with tear gas Monday night.
She asked Jackson if she would be gassed again.
The police chief remained stoic, until he heard she was a State Senator. Then, with a shocked look, he responded “I hope not.”
In that link this Senator is shown posing with a young man holding a full bottle of Tequila… at a demonstration. Seems more like a block party with incendiaries than a somber event to call for justice. What a disingenuous ass that ‘Senator’ and her cohorts are! Business are burning and you’re having a drink! Right on, stick it to whitey!
So who is going to say that the St. Louis Police Chief is anti-cop?
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-louis-police-chief-says-he-does-not-support-militarized/article_b401feba-b49e-5b79-8926-19481191726f.html
St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said in an interview this afternoon that he does not support the county police tactics in Ferguson, and has not sent officers to help them, aside from four officers to direct traffic.
He said he made the decision earlier this week, long before the confrontation between police and protesters on Wednesday night that saw the St. Louis County respond to protests with armored vehicles, tear gas and officers toting cannons and assault rifles.
“One side, the chiefly side of me, wants to always be there to support law enforcement in the city or in the county,” Dotson said. “My personal side was concerned about the things I saw transpiring in Ferguson.”
“My gut told me what I was seeing were not tactics that I would use in the city and I would never put officers in situations that I would not do myself,” he said.
He’s just like any other corrupt big city son of a bitch. He does what his patrons tell him to do. In this case they need all the help they can get to make looters look like victims of racism. He doesn’t give a damn about Ferguson, where the cops are trying to save the town from being burned and looted.
As a big city chief he is essentially a politician. So is he anti-cop? Sure, but only as far as it can benefit him and only until his force is put between a rock and a hard place.
Why do so many posters on this board judge black people by group generalization but demand white people be judged as individuals?
Why is it to so many that when a white person commits a crime it does not reflect negatively on all white people? Why do white people never do anything “because of their race”?
Do those who are so quick to shout “tyranny” not realize a favorite tactic of tyrants is to define society by small groups so these groups can be subjugated or eliminated one by one? All while the remaining groups think right is being done?
Does the man with the Cabelas hat deserve two rifles being pointed at him because he looks sort of like people who looted two days ago? Where’s the outrage from the folks that were up in arms because a police officer pointed a rifle at an OC’er in a park?
+1
So far as I can tell, you are the only trolling and posting baiting comments about some perceived double standard.
Cognitive dissonance much? Because…by far, the majority here that make ‘judgemental’ comments do so based on ACTIONS, not race.
I see a LOT of the posters here cry out loudly in defense of blacks when they are wronged, and celebrate their actions when they are right…such as the Moms and Grandmas in Detroit defending themselves and their homes.
So, please, please please stop trolling this garbage.
This is a quote from you earlier in this thread: “If the people in Ferguson are rioting because the kid got shot and they are pissed off at the PD, then why are they burning and looting businesses in their own community?”
This is what I’m talking about. Five (as far as I can tell) businesses were looted. Nine people have been arrested for the looting so far. How many actual looters do you think there were?
The people in Ferguson, the protesters, the rioters, and the looters are four different groups of people. Plenty of folks on here are implying that at least three of the four groups should be treated like looters regardless of whether they are looters. In the police’s eyes, apparently protesters magically turn into rioters when the sun goes down, and everyone from protesters on down gets treated like a rioter or looter, just in case.
“Plenty of folks on here are implying that at least three of the four groups should be treated like looters regardless of whether they are looters. “
Who is saying that?
People are talking about the looters and the rioters and the police response to them. Shoot, the other day, we had a post with the picture of a diverse group of people protecting their own property, and the huge, vast majority of the comments were POSITIVE and supportive.
I don’t recall one single person saying anything like “well, they are there, they must be part of the problem” because of their racial and ethnic diversity.
Really. I think you are seeing some bogey man here that simply does not exist. Yet you keep stating it as if it were well known fact that “we” support whites when THEY are on the receiving end and don’t other races.
It’s nonsense and not at all consistent with the users of this site post all the time.
ABC is reporting on this now as well. They quote several parties including DoD who say none of the weapons on display came from them. The New York police commissioner predictably defends military style law enforcement and also so predictably blames our “gun culture”.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-police-small-army-thousands-police-departments/story?id=24977299
Speaking of which – DiBlasio is either a master of irony or incredibly insensitive:
De Blasio’s “Don’t Resist Arrest” Plea Doesn’t Cut It
http://gawker.com/de-blasios-dont-resist-arrest-plea-doesnt-cut-it-1621538964
Or quite possibly a complete and utter idiot.
Race riots or not, the same forces at work here will be knocking down your doors should the antis get their bans passed. First the paramilitary, then the looters!
Clever, the police response to the fallout from the use of excessive force is excessive force.
Question for the multitude:
Who would rather see restore public order in a situation like this. Kitted it cops or actual military units? Remember today’s Naitonal Guard are not the draft dodgers of 1968 most of these guys have been in combat.
Frankly, I prefer the ktted up civilians to real live military.
That’s a good point and obviously I, too, would rather it be civilians. Thankfully, we live in a nation where those aren’t supposed to be the only choices.
Who said anything about civilians? He asked if you prefer it to be SWAT police or National Guard.
Oh, you think SWAT are civilians? LOL, go ahead and ask them if they are civvies, I dare you. They sure don’t think so.
Cops don’t think they are civilians. While most people think civilians are all non-military, they point to some dictionary definitions that state any government first responder, including the fire department, are not civilians. I take issue with that term being redefined.
@int19h: Yep, civilians.
You wrote, Who said anything about civilians? He asked if you prefer it to be SWAT police or National Guard. And he wrote, Frankly, I prefer the ktted up civilians to real live military.
I would rather see disciplined military than psychotic, frightened police any day.
So emigrate to Mexico so you can have your wish. /sarc
If it were military you would be screaming military coup.
What I really think you and the other critics want is a “citizens militia” response. That’s what would happened in in St Louis 100 years ago.
Strawman alert!
Your question is more like “In which tooth would you like a root canal without anesthesia?”
Go bait an anti.
If I were making a real strawman argument I would have omitted the /sarc tag so I guess don’t really know what a strawman is.
Given how many TTAGians pine for the good old days before we had regular police then the only alternative to deal with civil disorder is for the sheriff to call out the citizen militia and deputize them. So I don’t see how I was making a strawman argument. You should support that idea.
At this point I think I’d prefer the National Guard. Apparently, unlike the cops, NG actually gets riot suppression training.
If the cop had a body camera it is likely he never would have shot him.
Studies have shown that body cameras dramatically reduce the number of instances of the use of force by police. Obviously, this means that police abuse is rampant.
All they need or Swastika patches on their uniform and the transformation of America will be complete.
Seems that even Mr. Farago fell into the “mainstream media swamp”. In this article, Micheal Brown is referred to as an “unarmed” teenager. Even the video shows Brown flashing a “Bloods” sign…..and there are reports that he was a member in good standing.
So, it seems that what we have here is a gang-banger who tried to take an officer’s firearm. I’m a bit out of date on my data, but, back when I was carryin’ a badge……..a full one third of police officers were killed with their own firearms.
As to the militarization of police departments……….in my opinion…..20 year police executive……..there is absolutely no reason for it and with the exception of a limited number of special response officers……it simply should not occur! It is totally contrary to the mission of the police in a free society (is there a message there?). As Robert Peale……..he built modern policing on the tenet that the police cannot mirror the military……except in a totalitarian state.
I live about 3 miles from all the turmoil, which is contained within about a one mile stretch
All this has prompted my wife to learn to shoot a handgun
For all the arm chair quarterbacks…….
Here are links to some pictures that might explain why the police were there in hard gear after the previous burning/looting etc–
it might be a bit difficult to tell peaceful protesters from the rock,brick and molotov cocktail throwing ones
From the St Louis Post Dispatch coverage
Day after burning/looting
http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/af/eaf36228-1041-5d4b-89ca-c0e79a542df7/53ec5e80dab03.preview-620.jpg
From last night
http://www.stltoday.com/gallery/news/multimedia/a-fifth-night-of-unrest-in-ferguson/collection_393659cd-99cf-50c6-a30b-a7b454f36125.html#10
http://www.stltoday.com/gallery/news/multimedia/a-fifth-night-of-unrest-in-ferguson/collection_393659cd-99cf-50c6-a30b-a7b454f36125.html#11
http://www.stltoday.com/gallery/news/multimedia/a-fifth-night-of-unrest-in-ferguson/collection_393659cd-99cf-50c6-a30b-a7b454f36125.html#12
http://www.stltoday.com/gallery/news/multimedia/a-fifth-night-of-unrest-in-ferguson/collection_393659cd-99cf-50c6-a30b-a7b454f36125.html#18
How come they give the black guy a paintball gun, and everyone else gets a real gun??? Man that police force really is racist, lol.
But seriously, i hate how people that know nothing think the humvee is some great war machine. The one in the picture is not even armored. You would be no better off in a police cruiser with a gun turret mounted on top. A humvee is just an ultimate offroad machine, meant to replace the jeep. After some added armor in the 90’s, they were ungodly slow, suspensions started failing all the time, and they broke down all the time, they were never designed to accomodate armor.
That lenko bearcat which furguson police are using however, is a fully armored vehicle designed to carry that kind of weight. I’d take that any day over a humvee.
How come they give the black guy a paintball gun, and everyone else gets a real gun??? Man that police force really is racist, lol.
But seriously, i hate how people that know nothing think the humvee is some great war machine. The one in the picture is not even armored. You would be no better off in a police cruiser with a gun turret mounted on top. A humvee is just an ultimate offroad machine, meant to replace the jeep. After some added armor in the 90’s, they were ungodly slow, suspensions started failing all the time, and they broke down all the time, they were never designed to accomodate armor.
That lenko bearcat which furguson police are using however, is a fully armored vehicle designed to carry that kind of weight. I’d take that any day over a humvee.
I think it is a recipe for disaster and civil war.
“military-style helmets, carrying military-style gear and wielding military-style rifles”
if the rioters burst their way into your house you will have or wish you had the same gear. get over yourself robert, find a new obsession.
Most Americans are far, far more likely to have government thugs breaking into their homes than any rioters. I’d rather fend off a rag-tag group of rioters than militarized agents of government with the full force of that government behind them.
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