As the Centennial State counts down toward governor Governor Hickenlooper’s foolish, unconstitutional and ineffectual ban on normal-capacity magazines, I brought one of my own beloved PMAGs back to its Boulder birthplace for one last photo op. Here it is, standing tall before the iconic Flatirons. For now. But soon . . .
On July first, my Magpul PMAG will become an exile. When Colorado’s magazine-ban bill goes into effect, the PMAG becomes magazinus non gratis. Unless, that is, the state’s 54 Sheriffs succeed in their lawsuit to block it.
Boulder has always been one of the most leftist enclaves in the United States. But it used to be an item of pride that Boulder’s prized ‘diversity’ was broad enough to welcome Beat poet Alan Ginsburg, an accredited Buddhist college, the do-it-yourself anarchist Paladin Press and Bob Brown’s Soldier Of Fortune magazine, all at the same time.
I grew up in the People’s Republic. These days I find the thin mountain air to be stuffy and suffocating with the stench of socialism and civilian disarmament. Hell, you can’t even carry a Swiss Army Knife within the city limits these days. Not that it necessarily stopped me.
I wonder if the new law will stop Colorado residents from fully exercising their natural, civil and Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear PMAGs. Or if PMAGgeddon is on the way.
I didn’t know about the Swiss Army knife. I guess that I am a felon now.
Same here.. since I have carried a pocket knife with me since I was 14 in CO… AND i have had to use to to rescue a motorist or two who ended upside down with a seat belt on in their vehicle… try unbuckling a 250lb man when all of his weight is being suspended by the belt… stupid, stupid law.
Hmmm… I wound up hanging upside down from my seat belt once (rollovers are not very awesome), and despite being 265 lb., I released the latch just fine. Disentangling my legs from the steering column was the difficult part. But I guess all that shows is that things is different for everybody.
I didn’t need it then, but I did have a knife, and I’m never without one. If pocket knives are outlawed, then I guess I’ll be one of those dangerous outlaws.
Considering I know people who open carry in the People’s Republic regularly it was probably meant as sarcasm.
Probably just a miscreant (what do we call people who commit misdemeanors?)…
Relevant Boulder ordinances:
5-8-9 Carrying a Concealed Weapon.
No person shall have a knife or firearm concealed on or about such person’s body.
Under “5-8-22 Defenses”, it says that it is a specific defense to a charge of violating 5-8-9 that you were “carrying the weapon pursuant to a concealed weapons permit valid under the statutes of the State of Colorado.”
My CHP, issued by the Douglas County Sheriff, refers only to handguns, not “weapons”.
Aren’t existing standard cap mags grandfathered in?
Yep. Technically since he owns that one prior to 1 July it is grandfathered. That PMAGs poor little cousins will shot on sight though.
Yes they are. Starting July 1st, it will be illegal to import or transfer a standard capacity magazine of 16 rounds or more (9 rounds or more if it’s a shotgun magazine) within the state of Colorado, but magazines which are already owned prior to that date are still legal if the original owner maintains “continuous possession” of them.
What an absurd (and unconstitutional) law.
Don’t forget completely unenforceable
It will make it more…inconvenient to acquire standard capacity magazines. Local gun shops won’t carry them anymore; they won’t be for sale at local gun shows. Retailers (such as Brownells, Cabelas, etc.) won’t ship them to Colorado.
On the other hand, there’s nothing to stop someone from driving 100 miles north to a Wyoming gun show and bringing back all the Pmags he has cash for, and selling them to as many people as he likes. If one is questioned about using a standard capacity magazine when it’s taken to the range, one can simply answer, “I owned it before July 1st, 2013”.
How can anyone prove otherwise?
A law which actually banned possession (and didn’t allow grandfathering) would be more enforceable. Luckily, there’s isn’t the political will to pass such a measure in Colorado.
Yet.
As long as your pmag is dated Prior to 2013. If it have a 2014 date on it then it will be pretty clear it was bought after the ban.
Thanks
Robert
PS. We have a similar law in MD we just drive out of state to buy, sell, or trade mag larger then 20 rounds right now became’s 10 rounds in Oct.
“As long as your pmag is dated Prior to 2013. If it have a 2014 date on it then it will be pretty clear it was bought after the ban.”
Unless any such date mark “wears off”.
Right… Okay, that’s what I thought. I won’t say what I’m thinking next, though. But I’m quite sure everyone here can take the next logical step with me.
“(9 rounds or more if it’s a shotgun magazine)”
The shotgun numbers changed a few times. The final version doesn’t describe a specific number of rounds; instead, it prohibits:
A FIXED, TUBULAR SHOTGUN MAGAZINE THAT HOLDS MORE THAN TWENTY-EIGHT INCHES OF SHOTGUN SHELLS, INCLUDING ANY EXTENSION DEVICE THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE MAGAZINE AND HOLDS ADDITIONAL SHOTGUN SHELLS
In a 12 gauge using 2 3/4″ shells, that should be at least 11 shells.
With or without the spring?
and what about the kel-tec w/ two tubes?
BTW 10X2.75″ is 27.5″ the 11th shell would put it over.
“With or without the spring?
and what about the kel-tec w/ two tubes?”
The statute refers to total length of shells, not components of the magazine.
“BTW 10X2.75″ is 27.5″ the 11th shell would put it over.”
Unfired 2.75″ shells (what you would have in the magazine) are not 2.75″ long. That dimension refers to the fired length, after the crimp has expanded into the chamber.
In addition to banning tubular magazines of a certain length, it also bans shotgun magazines in excess of 8 rounds.
(II) A FIXED, TUBULAR SHOTGUN MAGAZINE THAT HOLDS MORE THAN TWENTY-EIGHT INCHES OF SHOTGUN SHELLS, INCLUDING ANY EXTENSION DEVICE THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE MAGAZINE AND HOLDS ADDITIONAL SHOTGUN SHELLS; OR
(III) A NONTUBULAR, DETACHABLE MAGAZINE, BOX, DRUM, FEED STRIP, OR SIMILAR DEVICE THAT IS CAPABLE OF ACCEPTING MORE THAN EIGHT SHOTGUN SHELLS WHEN COMBINED WITH A FIXED MAGAZINE.
“it also bans shotgun magazines in excess of 8 rounds”
Yes, for non-tubular, detachable shotgun magazines only. So a drum mag on a semi-auto shotgun would be prohibited, if that mag holds more than 8 rounds.
Do not forget any mag that is readily convertible to more than 15 rounds. Any standard Glock 19 magazine cannot be imported since the base plate may be replaced with another base plate that increases the magazine’s capacity past 15.
IIRC, that was addressed in the press conference announcing the lawsuit. The statute says “designed to be readily converted to accept” more than 15 rounds. That goes to the intent of the designer.
Was the Glock 19 magazine designed the way it was so that it could be readily converted, or was that just a happy accident?
Were my various Magpul mags designed to be expanded by something like the Nordic Components PMAG Extension kit? If yes, then every such new PMAG is banned, even if it only holds 10 rounds – since the NC product will always add 18 rounds.
“Starting July 1st, it will be illegal to import or transfer”
The law says nothing about importing. It prohibits selling, transferring, and possessing. Possession is allowed if you owned the magazine on 01 July 2013 and maintained continuous possession of it.
If someone is in Kansas on 01 July 2013 and purchases a 30-round AR-15 magazine in Kansas on that date, he could legally bring it into Colorado whenever he pleases – as long as he “maintains continuous possession” of the magazine from date of purchase
One correction: the limit signed by the Governor is 10 rounds.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont/7E6713B015E62E6F87257B0100813CB5?Open&file=1224_01.pdf
That’s an early version of the bill. The number of rounds changed.
The one signed by Chickenpooper is here.
Boulder ordinance isn’t enforacble due to state law SB03-25.
To think that I was once considering moving my family and business to Colorado. Nothing could be further from my mind now. I am moving to Arizona this Fall.
I still have a lot of hope for CO. Certainly more than I do for where I’m at now. I’m still hoping to move out there soon. And add one more (genuine!) common sense vote to the mix.
I also still have a lot of hope for CO. Especially given that my Sheriff is not only one of the 54 suing the governor, but he was also one of the 18 at the press conference.
Full disclosure: I’m a California ex-pat. I left CA because: a) I wanted to live in CO, b) I was tired of CA taxation, c) I was tired of my vote “not counting” in CA, etc. When we moved in, I assured my new neighbors that I was escaping CA, not bringing it with me. One neighbor told me I’d fit right in, as I’d moved into the second most conservative county in the state (Douglas, second to El Paso; don’t know how accurate that is, it was just what he told me 2 years ago).
Move to Flagstaff. We could use more pro-gun people up here. Too many hippie Sedona types continue to slither up over the rim and settle here.
For those talking about leaving CO. Don’t it until you at least try to turn the tide back. leaving just ensures it is handed over to the gun grabbers. As a resident of the hopelessly gun grabbing NJ (since 1965), I can tell you that once the rot is set in, it cannot be turned back easily. You have a one or two election window to make a difference. Please try!
This. What I’m hearing from family there is that it’s far from lost.
This is the government WE created. Surrendering our rights & freedoms to legislators. Want change…..sit at a mind numbing council meeting EVERY month, bring your friends, wear the yellow button. Fill out a sheet. Speak for three minutes. Over time fill the room with your clan wearing the button.
THE ONLY THING THESE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IS THE VOTE. Vote them out
It’s amazing… here you are in Colorado with an evil “high” capacity magazine.
And yet you somehow to managed to not kill the other people walking at the far end of that trail…
I am a native and a proud Coloradoan who is embarrassed and disgusted with the current state of affairs in my home state. The thing is, there are a LOT of pissed off people here who feel the same way. I would agree with the statement made above, that the fight is far from over, and Colorado is still very much in play.
Just wait until we can vote these bastards out on their asses. If the Libtards don’t take a whooping in 2014, then it might be time to go….
I am sure that, if the law stands, come July there will be a whole lot of 10 round 458 SOCOM magazines for sale in Colorado gun stores.
– bsd
Wait, you’re not supposed to carry knives in Boulder?
On another note, it’s a good thing you didn’t take that 30 rounder to Denver or it would really go wild. Only 20rds are tame enough for the big city.
I wasn’t aware that mags were date stamped in CO. Is that part of the law now? None of my myriad mags have any date stamp, pistol or rifle. Seems to me that making sure the mag have no date stamp woud be logical for purchase and resale.
It’s part of the new law:
18-12-303. Identification markings for large-capacity magazines – rules. (1) A LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINE THAT IS MANUFACTURED IN COLORADO ON OR AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THIS SECTION MUST INCLUDE A PERMANENT STAMP OR MARKING INDICATING THAT THE LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINE WAS MANUFACTURED OR ASSEMBLED AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THIS SECTION. THE STAMP OR MARKING MUST BE LEGIBLY AND CONSPICUOUSLY ENGRAVED OR CAST UPON THE OUTER SURFACE OF THE LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINE.
No prohibition against the consumer removing such a stamp or marking, as far as I’ve been able to find.
(My PMAGs all seem to have a date of manufacture molded into the outer surface. Looks like month and year.)
Wow! The bastards thought of that when they crafted this obscene law. Figures.
And let’s not forget, even if they are brand new, if criminals don’t have to register their guns because it would be self-incrimination, why should you have to tell the truth about your magazines?
Criminals can still be sent to prison for having them, though. If you lie about it, your lie better hold up, because ridiculous though it is, you already will technically be a criminal.
Presuming “lie about it” refers to saying you owned a 16+ round magazine on or before 01 July 2013, when you really bought it later…
“Holding up” is a pretty low bar. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. If you assert that you bought the mags from an out-of-state vendor (whose name escapes you) prior to 01 July 2013 (when, in fact, you bought them from your neighbor on 15 July 2013), how would the prosecution refute that assertion?
Still beats Kalifornia
Don’t get me started on my home state of Crazyfornia. There are 2 DOZEN gun control bills active in the legislature right now and every single Demonrat legislator will vote for every single one of them. Since they have a supermajority in the Senate and Assembly we are doomed. Even if Moonbeam vetoes some of them his veto will be overridden by his own party. Our gun laws have been obnoxious and oppressive for several decades and will soon become immeasurably worse. This place is East Germany with sunshine.
I HATE KALIFORNIA!
So if the police see anyone with a 30 round mag, will they have “reasonable” suspicion to stop and search them to verify the date of manufacture?
They might even arrest and leave it up to the DA. The first offense is a Class 2 Misdemeanor (3-12 months in the county jail and/or a $250-$1000 fine).
The law does allow one to “assert” that he owned the mag prior to 01 July 2013 and has maintained “continuous possession” (whatever that means); “the prosecution has the burden of proof to refute the assertion.”
It means they want to prevent what was happening in New York were there was a market for pre-ban mag. Think Machine guns made before 1986.
Thanks
Robert
They’ll just seize the mags (for their own collections, no doubt). There are dozens of citizens who have had assets (cash, vehicles, property) seized under the “War on Drugs” without them being arrested or charged with any crime at all.
I believe it is significantly more than dozens.
BigSkydoc brought up something interesting about the .458 SOCOM.
I had never heard of that round before and for those as ignorant as me, it uses a .308 sized rim and feeds single stack in the .223 mag. This was to stay within the M4/16 infrastucture for the military.
How many .458 rounds would fit in the .223/5.56 30 or 20 rnd mag?
If you carried around a mag filled with .458 to show law enforcement its “true” capacity, what could they say about all your empty ones built in 2014?
“Yeah but, but…”
I guess they would head back to the legislative drawing board.
There are three capacities of 458 SOCOM magazines* that I am familiar with. The standard capacity 10 rounder, a reduced capacity 7 rounder for those that experience feeding issues with the standard capacity magazine, and a further restricted capacity magazine. I do not personally own any of the latter so I am not sure how many rounds they hold.
-bsd
*You will find that these magazines are frequently advertised as 10, 20, and 30 round capacity magazines since it appears quite popular utilize them as a substitute for .223/5.56 AR magazines and those are their.223/5.56 cartridge capacities.
Even better, all new mags should be factory labeled “.458 SOCOM 10 round cap.”
That might be a problem, based on the text of the CO law:
A FIXED OR DETACHABLE MAGAZINE, BOX, DRUM, FEED STRIP, OR SIMILAR DEVICE CAPABLE OF ACCEPTING, OR THAT IS DESIGNED TO BE READILY CONVERTED TO ACCEPT, MORE THAN FIFTEEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION;
Such a magazine, even if labeled “.458 SOCOM 10 round cap” is still capable of accepting … more than fifteen rounds of ammunition – if the ammunition in question is .223 Remington. It would be an unhappy (for the person who possesses the mag) accident that the magazine works just fine in a .223 Rem firearm when loaded with 16+ rounds. Nothing in the new law says that the defendant must actually own such a firearm in order to be violating the new statute.
So, if I manage to cram 16 rounds of .22lr into an old 7 round 1911 magazine . . .
We watch as the graceful Pmag perches itself upon an upright log post. Being the last of its kind within the state not in captivity, it waits for its flock to arrive before migrating to its new home of Texas. Ah, but it appears the magazine has caught a liberal gun-grabber trying to sneak up on it. Being made of plastic smarter then those who wish to destroy it, the Pmag lies down in an attempt to mimic a rock. As expected, the predator soon passes without incident.
Update:
This is from Teppo Jutsu site:
Magazines – the .458 SOCOM was designed to work with any GI/Mil Spec magazine. We have not heard of any particular type or brand of magazine that did not function. Magazine capacities for the different size magazines are as follows:
10 rounds of .223 – 3 rounds of .458 SOCOM
20 rounds of .223 – 7 rounds of .458 SOCOM
30 rounds of .223 – 10 rounds of .458 SOCOM (have heard 12)
40 rounds of .223 – 13 rounds of .458 SOCOM (have heard 15)
So what about out-of-state visitors? Suppose I have a magazine that I purchased before July, 2013, and I want to bring it with me while I visit friends/relatives or hunt in Colorado. Will Colorado consider me a felon for bringing it into the state — even if I fully intend to take it out of the state with me?
And their date stamping law is stupid: why would a company put post-July 2013 date stamps on 30 round magazines which they cannot legally sell in Colorado? No other state requires date stamps so why would the magazine company put any stamps on their magazines at all?
The law was written with the assumption that MAGPUL would still be manufacturing mag bodies in the state after the 1st of July. I assume they will not be. I hope I am not wrong in my assumption, as the legislature and chief executive of the State of Colorado were wrong in theirs.
I don’t see anything in the new law about “importing”. The only prohibited acts are selling, transferring, and possessing. Possession is allowed if you a) owned the mag on 01 July 2013 and b) maintain continuous possession of it; if you assert this, the prosecution has the burden of proof to refute the assertion.
This is the version that was passed and signed by the gov.
Tancredeo (R) announced he is running for governor. Won’t fix anything short term, but it’s good to hear this announcement.
I will be voting for those that support my rights.
Some other things that are unclear with this law:
Does this ban apply to BB guns with a box reservoir for BBs? By my reading, it certainly could.
What defines continuous possession? Must it be on my person? If not, can I set it down and leave it? If so, how many inches/feet/miles can I go before it is out of my possession? Must it be locked up when not in my possession as defined therein? Can I hand it to another person–my son, for example? If so, at what point does that other person have possession? None of this is even remotely answered.
What happens when I die? Must my heirs summon the police to search for the mag so they don’t take possession of it? I can no longer have “possession” of it post mortem, so by default, anyone who touches it is breaking the transfer rule.
What happens while the DA or cops (probably in Boulder) is “refuting the assertion”? If they have probable cause to think I’m lying about when I acquired the mag, in the meantime can they throw me in jail while they try to prove I’m lying? Seize my mag?
I asked these questions directly to Rep. Rhonda Fields on her FB page and got zero response. That’s because she, as the author of the bill, has no idea how it will work.
Hence the lawsuit by 54 of 64 Sheriffs (representing 75% of the state population) who are charged with enforcing the law.
I already have a bunch of mags that will be grandfathered, but I could easily have friends outside the state get some mags and mail them to me. How would anyone ever know?
Better yet, I’ll just move.
If the mags didn’t [still] have any manufacturing date info, they wouldn’t. The law isn’t enforceable. Hence the lawsuit.
edit: you could also drive over to an adjacent state (for me, it would be Wyoming), buy some mags and give that state the sales tax, remove any “date” info, then return to CO. Nobody would ever know. (This post not intended to condone any activity prohibited by law.)
Correction – the suit has 55 sheriffs now.
Straight from the twitter feed of Dave Kopel:
“Colo Sheriffs’ lawsuit against anti-gun laws grows to 55 Sheriffs, with addition of Rodney Johnson of Grand County.”
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