Imagine sinking from a speech writer for a Republican president to writing throw-away gun control screeds in a failing leftist opinion magazine. How the mighty, like never-Trumper David Frum, have fallen.
Frum’s recent piece written in The Atlantic suggests that the way to persuade Americans to give up their guns is to gaslight them into thinking that guns really don’t protect them. Because — laugh out loud — guns don’t thwart over a million crimes each year and deter attacks even more.
When the coronavirus pandemic struck last year, people throughout the developed world raced to buy toilet paper, bottled water, yeast for baking bread, and other basic necessities. Americans also stocked up on guns. They bought more than 23 million firearms in 2020, up 65 percent from 2019. First-time gun purchases were notably high. The surge has not abated in 2021. In January, Americans bought 4.3 million guns, a monthly record.
Last year was also a high-water mark for gun violence—more people were shot dead than at any time since the 1990s—though 2021 is shaping up to be even worse. There was one bright spot in 2020. When Americans self-isolated, mass shooters were denied their usual targets. But as America began to return to normal, so did the mass shootings: 45 in the single month between March 16 and April 15.
Note that the BLM-fueled riots, defunded police departments, zero bail policies and disinterested prosecutors don’t merit a mention in Frum’s blame-the-guns (and the troglodytes who own them) thesis.
With Frum’s polemic, The Atlantic reinforces its growing reputation for fake news and junk “science” (“How Junk Food Can End Obesity“) that have led to a drastic loss of readers and advertisers. Things are so bad there that last year, they dumped about 20% of their staff and slashed executive pay to remain solvent. Content like this isn’t going to help matters.
Frum tosses in all manner of cherry-picked statistics, some legitimate, some from junk science, and some outright garbage. He calls gun owners “barbarians” and “race warriors” in one breath, then writes about how women and people of color make up a growing share of gun owners.
The former Bush speechwriter, prominently and proudly displaying healthy doses of urban elitism and condescension, suggests that gun owners are simply stupid.
But like the people who refuse lifesaving vaccines for fear of minutely rare side effects, American gun buyers are falling victim to bad risk analysis.
Keep telling yourself that, David.
By the end of his piece you would think every woman in America faces a gun pointed at her by an angry spouse or boyfriend on a weekly basis. Those hundreds of thousands of defensive gun uses we read about only result from trigger-happy gun owners needlessly escalating routine confrontations.
He calls it patriotic to get rid of your guns. “The gun is a lie,” Frum proclaims. They don’t keep you safe and only result in more violence…all evidence to the contrary.
Gaslighting. It’s real. Here’s how Psychology Today defines it:
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting their memory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
And Psychology Today describes those who practice it:
Those who employ this tactic often have a personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder and psychopathy chief among them. Manipulators have a tendency to present one face to their prey and another to the rest of the world, leading victims to assume that if they ask for help or speak out, no one will believe that they have been manipulated and emotionally abused. Gaslighters typically repeat the tactics across several relationships.
Read for yourself the sub-head of Frum’s article and ask yourself if this is his stock-in-trade at The Atlantic:
The way to reduce gun violence is by convincing ordinary, “responsible” handgun owners that their weapons make them, their families, and those around them less safe.
Is it any wonder The Atlantic is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy?
Gaslighting. Is that another way of saying communist reeducation?
I’d compare the constant “gaslighting” in the MSM more of an attempt at “Stockholm Syndrome” in that Americans who rely, or even believe what they are “reporting” is a form of hostage-taking.
Way down below is darcian the bozo who uses the copyrighted Alfred E. Newman for his moniker. The pathological liar darcian attempts to sugarcoat ongoing US mob riots by labeling and blaming others for which his very own marxist comrades are guilty of.
The lying continued with darcian’s, “The defund police hysteria promoted by the jack booted Far Right ignore that “defund the police” was meant to “de-militarize” them.”
A drama queen clown like darcian must think everyone is stupid like him. Defund and de-militarize are two entirely different things like night and day so no hysteria was ever required. Now that darcian sees “Defund has backfired” he attempts to resuscitate a dead horse with his “De-militarize BS.” Perhaps if darcian is so concerned about police de-militarization he should first hop on his tricycle and pedal up to the White House and ask sicko Jim Crow Gun Control joe why he militarized terrorists in Afghanistan with mountains of US Taxpayer paid for US Munitions?
The race card dealing darcian takes hypocrisy to a new level. He points fingers at The Party of Lincoln while he covers for the party that owns the legacy of slavery, segregation, lynching, the KKK, Jim Crow, Eugenics, Gun Control and other race based atrocities. The history of the democRat Party is so disgusting it is safe to say, A Black American belonging to the democRat Party makes as much sense as a Jew belonging to the nazi party. Where is darcian when he cannot run and hide from the Truth? NOWHERE.
One thing you will never hear coming from the pieholes of clowns like darcian is a call to hold the democRat Party monetarily liable for its long, long, long despicable history of race based atrocities. That says it all about worthless, lying, deranged slugs like darcian.
Let him rant, Deb. Let all of them talk, just refute their drivel with the truth. If all we can do is what he/she/it does upon challenge is to enter the personal attack game rather than counter with some facts and logic, there’s not many that will fall for the lies, either direct or by omission. Use facts, logic, reason, and most importantly, the truth.
Dont automatically think a-holes like him are stupid…….they just believe you are!!
Never ascribe to stupidity, that which can easily be explained by evil.
Wonder what his opinion of Ivermectin is?
Depends on if you are a horse or cow.
Depends upon which farm animal you identify as. Clearly you are not up to date with Woke-onics.
If I have to identify. I’ll be Napoleon from Animal Farm.
Gonna sound messed up… but we need to conjure up some gaslighting of our own.
Its very clear ordinary people are easily manipulated and are used to strip everyone and themselves of their rights and are convinced its the right thing. If people can be manipulated into it, they can be manipulated out of it.
Fighting fire with fire is sometimes necessary.
Apparently logic and facts just aren’t working. The problem with gaslighting is you have to lie.
“Fighting fire with fire is sometimes necessary.”
Leave me out of that- two lies will never make a truth. We, who believe in freedom, the Second Amendment and the US Constitution need to keep on standing for it by exposing the truth. (Never thougth the truth would need to be “exposed”, but…)
I know many POTG believe there should come some sort of “final battle”, legislation, court ruling, or other matter that will decide this age-old debate, once-and-for-all. It will never come, except should The People decide to overturn the Second Amendment, which is a possibility under Article 5.
I’ve been immersed in this process since 1975 and the only difference today is the scope of the lies against us and the ability of the elite to “cancel” many of us because many have chosen to participate in their filtered, privately-regulated communications systems rather than maintain our own networks and stay active beyond typing comments on a keyboard. We need to “get out more” and be seen; and then, always in a positive light to the majority of those who, at this moment in time, have little interest in guns, or the Second Amendment. We have, after all, seen millions added to the gun owner ranks in the past 2 years. Most of those came via actions from the woke left, NOT from us. THAT is a pity- WE should be bringing them in.
Craig, I really liked your comment. You’ve got it right: these are age-old (and I mean OLD) debates, which can never be fully resolved, but which must always be fought. You’ve hit the nail on the head about being honest, stating the truth, and staying positive. Big tech is making it harder and harder to do this: the prevailing social media business model is to stoke anger in order to get clicks and sell ads. Nothing stokes anger like outrageous lies. We shouldn’t fall for it, and we should work to end the communication monopoly we’ve allowed these terrible companies (and people) to create.
Glad to see there are other like-minded people here.
If I could come up with Mr. Peabody’s Wayback Machine, I’d love to take some of the TTAG contributors back to Tombstone, AZ, say, 1879 or so. (OK Corral deal was 1881, I believe…) Love to hear them take on the Earps for making the cowpokes check in their guns when they came to town. Completely arbitrary, no chance of appeal, nothing. Talk about Red Flag laws- didn’t even need a phony complaint.
Oh, I suppose the Tombstone residents kept their guns (?) but it’d be like travelling across Illinois on !-80 for people on the move.
“..except should The People decide to overturn the Second Amendment, which is a possibility under Article 5.”
Craig,
The Bill Of Rights, which includes the Second Amendment, is a God given Natural Right. Bestowed upon us by our creator, it exists whether or not it is codified in writing. It exists, as long as we exist.
Wrong. Read Article 5 of the US Constitution. The processes for amendment are there in black and white. Any and all can be re-written if the criteria are met.
There once was, for example, the 18th Amendment. Not long afterwards, it was rescinded. All under Article 5.
The entire notion of “our Creator” could be quashed by The People should the conditions be met. And seriously, nothing would make your average, Leftist progressive happier than that.
Do not believe for a second that the Second Amendment, nor The Constitution itself is anything more than fancy artwork if we only give lip service as to what “we” think it should mean.
Craig,
Would not want to put words in anyone’s mouth, or attribute positions that they do not actually hold, but . . . your comment (the most recent one) sounds suspiciously like you are asserting that, IF the Congress and the states chose to repeal the 2A, we would no longer have the right to self-defense, or the RKBA. Am I reading you correctly??
The Atlantic magazine is where self appointed ruling class a-holes like Frum talk to one another to reaffirm their intellectual superiority over the rest of us unwashed masses.
The magazine is irrelevant, as is Frum.
You’re right…. except “frum” ain’t self appointed…. he’s appointed…. by the enemy of the world… and we ALL know who I’m talking about 😉
I knew we should never have let Martha Stewart go free.
They had to get rid of her she was changing the way a jail should look.
Twice, I tried reading The Atlantic. Both time, I purchased it at an airport shop before taking a cross-country flight. I could not…both times…long, ponderous articles that seemed to be written to show off the author’s linguistic cred, rather than actually communicating information. The message seemed to be “you must be smart because you are reading my words”. Conclusion: The Atlantic is just an effete rag that panders to people who think knowing the meaning of big words makes them superior to those around them.
I will settle for my banal mediocrity. Mediocrity is, in fact, something at which I excel.
Brevity of communication is more effective.
I that case let me be brief. Frum can f off.
I can’t say I’ve ever been a big fan of The Atlantic, either. About the only really positive thing I can say about it is: at least it’s not Harper’s…
Had to laugh at your description of the Atlantic, it sounded so familiar. It reminded me of my experience with The Economist, I liked it so much I actually subscribed. Whoa! A tremendous and wonderful magazine, the articles were at a level that one issue would keep my mind busy for a year, leaving me worn out after completing it. No way I could keep up, I let the subscription lapse and went back to Motor Trend.
Correlation does not equal causation.
And those buying the guns are not the ones using them for illegal activities.
We’ve come to a place and time where gaslighting is the norm regardless of the source. So much so that the media itself has lost track of what is real and what is some fabrication of the latest iteration of Mockingbird. People like Frum are just collecting as much cash as they can before running to their bunkers. I doubt they have any real convictions whatsoever.
All that matters now is the tribe you’ve chosen to align with. Enjoy the dopamine from all the confirmation bias and echo chambers because the longer all this wokey, astroturf cause, “othering”, hypocrisy goes on the correction back to reality is going to be increasingly painful.
Rolling Stones complete thin air fabrication last week and total lack of consequence should be illustration enough of the situation we’re in. Days later people are still spreading it around as fact despite an admission it was 100% made up bullshit. This is the current state of media and consumers of.
Anything you don’t want to hear is a lie and anything you want to hear is true. Which means we all may as well stop communicating with each other and thats gotta be good for civilization, right?
Rolling Stone didn’t directly libel anyone, so it’s hard for somebody to claim damages and sue, unlike when they made up the story about rape at a UVA fraternity.
Ya , I saw this trash several days ago. Frum was always a Neocon elitist piece of trash and it got so bad that none of the regular GOP would trust him, he11 even the RINOs turned their backs on him. Maybe Rolling Stone will pick him up when Atlantic folds.
After working in an University for many years, I learned that the self absorbed intellectuals only believe what they feel, and never believe facts if it disproves their opinion or agenda.
Masks don’t work, they believe they do even when the virus is way smaller than the masks filter capabilities. Same thing with guns, even government sponsored studies estimate guns prevent at least 500,000 and as much as as 3,000,000 crimes a year and save at least 108,000 lives.
As a retiring academic of 40-some years, who never bought in to the Hippy BS from the late 1960s to present, I’ve come to know that the majority of “educated” elites are more concerned with their intentions than with their actual lifestyles and/or actions.
You are very confused about masks, allow me to explain. While it is true that due to the filter capability a single mask is worth nothing, we can counter that by wearing several, as we all know what five times zero equates to.
Some masks DO work. But, no, not *all* masks are created equal.
That’s why the guidelines specify a mask with a rating of N-95 or higher (KN-95 in a pinch but less preferred), or multiple layers (3 or more) of a decent fabric with a tighter weave. Wearing a single layer mask made of poorly chosen materials (jersey knit or other open weave ‘breathable fabrics’ for example) will not work, but that does NOT mean that all masks don’t.
But then, how could the professionals with decades of actual medical and scientific training *possibly* know more about that than random dudes on Facebook or elsewhere, opining and reposting idiocy they find on Facebook or 8-chan…
You forgot Emptying the jails of felons in your 2020 happenings!
I also want this guy to tell everyone they can rely on the police to protect them reliably! That sort of stuff is a hoot after everyone got to see city blocks burned to the ground last year.
Ehhh…does Frum rhyme with scum?
Frum is a authoritarian neocon scumbag who is supportive of the surveillance state and global war on terrorism, to include the waste of wars that just imploded spectacularly. Thats not even getting into his emotional investment in the debunked, craptastic Russia-gate conspiracy theory.
Fair to say this idiot is pretty much wrong about everything that one could be.
I’m not convinced this Frum guy is an honest person. He may not have believed the Russia conspiracy theory, but felt it was in his best interest to help push it. The same may be true with the above-referenced article.
If someone like David From is telling you to get rid of your guns, take it as a hint to buy more of them. Plus ammunition.
“But like the people who refuse lifesaving vaccines for fear of minutely rare side effects, American gun buyers are falling victim to bad risk analysis.” – Frum
I used to do risk assessment matrix for many activities from night parachute operations to soldiers using lawn mowers. I know how risk assessment works.
My assessment is that firearms in my possession are inherently safe. My past use shows careful use and a lack of accidents . Obeying safety procedures will keep that risk at a minimum.
I keep a fire extinguisher in my kitchen, shed and car. Never had a fire in any of those places, but those are areas at risk for fires. I insure they are properly charged and accessible.
I will not ask Mr Frum advice on any topic, the risk is too great to be given bad information. Bad information creates failure and is a risk to avoid.
“Bad risk analysis”? You’re right, the esteemed Mr. Frum is barking up the wrong tree.
When I got into guns about 13 years ago, I wondered if maybe I really was putting myself and my family in danger, like the media always says, and if I should maybe back away from that fascinating and fun pastime to keep myself and the family safe.
So I did some research — looking for numbers and reliable data, *not* partisan rhetoric. (What I found…no surprise, in hindsight…was that while both sides love their partisan talking points, only one side ever bothered to back them up with data, while the other side had nothing but empty rhetoric and emotional manipulation. No points for guessing which one is which.)
What I found was that the likelihood that I’ll ever the the target of a violent crime is very low. This is a statistic that makes sense intuitively. I don’t engage in activities that entail high risk, and as a large male who cultivates an intimidating appearance, I don’t tend to get mistaken for a physical target. My son, 6′-6″ and built like an offensive lineman, doesn’t have to worry much, either. For my wife and daughter — a middle-aged woman with bad knees and a young woman in a wheelchair — the risk is significantly higher in relative terms, but still very low in absolute terms.
If that’s all you’re looking at, why bother with guns for self-protection? (Never mind for fun; that’s a different question.) A lot of gun owners dramatically overestimate the likelihood of a self-defense scenario. Statistically speaking, you’re never going to need them.
BUT the people who think of guns as an inherent danger to everyone that owns them are vastly overestimating as well. Take a look at the accidental injury rate with guns; statistically speaking, you’re 10 times more likely to fall off a ladder and end up in the ER (or a casket) than to accidentally shoot yourself of someone else.
Bottom line, guns are no more dangerous to their law-abiding owners, whether used for fun or carried for self-defense, than any number of innocuous household items.
So where does that leave us?
If you’re making a purely rational decision, there’s not much to go on in those numbers. There’s little reason for people to get all worked up about banning guns as a danger to everyone, and there’s also (based solely on the odds) little reason to expect and plan for fending off violent criminals. Mostly, they would seem to say there’s not much to worry about.
But… There are consequences to consider.
This is where the rubber meets the road. Because the consequences of winning that dubious crime-victim lottery are extreme and permanent. Lifelong trauma. Death.
And being able to bring a gun to bear is proven to work in preventing those consequences, as sources ranging from the National Crime Victimization survey to the CDC to the much-cited (by gun people) Kleck-Gertz study can verify.
When we look at it that way, owning a gun enters the same category as wearing seatbelts and having fire extinguishers in your home. You’re not all that likely to need any of those things — but the consequences of not having one in that rare event are so extreme that it would be foolish *not* to have preventive measures in place.
Maybe someone should ask Mr. Frum if he believes in fire extinguishers and fire escapes.
BWAA-haha! I’ve owned and enjoyed firearms for over 60 years now, with never a problem. In 2006 I was replacing a battery in a smoke detector in my home, fell off the ladder and broke my hip, necessitating a hip replacement, overall cost well past $100,000 plus pain and suffering. Just BTW, no smoke detector has ever done me any good,either, but the law requires them.
Who is David From???
Who is dacian? Unfortunately, you’re about to find out.
Annnnd…right on time.
Quote—————-Note that the BLM-fueled riots, defunded police departments, zero bail policies and disinterested prosecutors don’t merit a mention in Frum’s blame-the-guns (and the troglodytes who own them) thesis.————quote
The real facts are that Federal Investigations showed that Far Right Neo Nazi organizations like the Proud Boys were caught posing as BLM and burning buildings. Most all of the BLM protests were peaceful. Such statements blaming them for mass riots are a manifestation of racism at its worst because its a complete falsehood and its been discussed in depth in all of the accredited news media outlets. But when did the Far Right ever watch anything except Republican State Run Fox News.
The defund police hysteria promoted by the jack booted Far Right ignore that “defund the police” was meant to “de-militarize” them. The government giving military tanks, flame throwers and other weapons of war and mass destruction (and even robotic bomb machines that have been already used) to completely untrained and totally out of control police departments make a mockery of the original job of police and that is community involvement, not jack booted mass murder, or using Nazi terror tactics which turn a country into an authoritarian state that the Far Right so worship and desire to create i.e. another Hitlerite White Supremacist Country based on the Nazi Germany of the 30’s.
quote————-By the end of his piece you would think every woman in America faces a gun pointed at her by an angry spouse or boyfriend on a weekly basis. Those hundreds of thousands of defensive gun uses we read about only result from trigger-happy gun owners needlessly escalating routine confrontations.———-quote
quote————The way to reduce gun violence is by convincing ordinary, “responsible” handgun owners that their weapons make them, their families, and those around them less safe.———–quote
Frumm was very much spot on as studies going back decades prove that the overwhelming majority of people killed by gunfire were killed by people they know including members of their own family. The Far Rights false claims of massive break ins and attacks on the street are minimal compared to the graveyards of corpses that got there because they were killed by a family member or relative. Studies show you really are less safe with guns in the home, not even including accidents with them which double the risk.
quote————-Frum’s recent piece written in The Atlantic suggests that the way to persuade Americans to give up their guns is to gaslight them———–quote
Frum presenting another side of the gun problem in the U.S. is not gaslighting rather gaslighting is what the Far Right does when they ignore or deny the gun problem in the U.S.
quote————–Last year was also a high-water mark for gun violence—more people were shot dead than at any time since the 1990s—though 2021 is shaping up to be even worse. There was one bright spot in 2020. When Americans self-isolated, mass shooters were denied their usual targets. But as America began to return to normal, so did the mass shootings: 45 in the single month between March 16 and April 15.————–quote
Again Frum was spot on. Robert Reich has discussed many survey’s that prove whenever there is an increase in gun ownership there is an increase in crime and murder, especially in the U.S. that unlike in civilized countries the U.S. does not vet all gun purchases, nor in many states require training in the law or in safe gun handling and storage. European and Asian countries definitely do vet all gun purchases and the results of less homicides and accidents prove that their system of gun laws work and work much better than the almost total lack of any civilized gun control laws in the U.S.
I might add the horrific increase in road rage murder and mass murder at large gatherings of people in the U.S. has panicked the American public and made them aware that just letting anyone buy a second hand gun or build a ghost gun who wants one has put them and their families at extreme risk. It has now become unsafe to even go shopping at Christmas time and everyone in the U.S. damn well knows it.
The America of the 40’s and 50’s is now history and the new reality is we now live in a country gone completely insane with gun violence and the sooner we do something about it the better off and the more safe everyone will be.
….. dacian, the yapping dog everyone likes to kick.
And yet you still respond to it…
Gibberish. Honestly, your meds need adjusting.
Reading his posts is like hearing a 2 minute 45 second long six-octave fart.
But not as funny.
“…six-octave fart.”
+5 just for putting those three words in that order.
+5 on the rest of it as well. It’s really rare that I skip posts when I read the comment section but for him I make an exception.
“…six-octave fart.”
…and the lower the octave, the ‘damper’ the flatus… 😉
“……the new reality is we now live in a country gone completely insane with gun violence and the sooner we do something about it the better off and the more safe everyone will be…..”
and how exactly to you propose to do something about it?
Going to put your ‘jack boots’ on?
He’s already wearing them.
Involuntary wealth transfer.
Just like after Communists won in China how the landlords appeared in propaganda films to be overjoyed at signing their property over to the people, immediately prior to their execution.
quote————–and how exactly to you propose to do something about it?———–quote
1. vet all gun purchases
2. require a mental test before purchase.
3. safe storage laws
All the above have been proven to work and work well in civilized countries and its about time Capitalvania became civilized as well.
And Commissar Dacian under ATF Director Chipman’s guidance is the one to enforce those rules.
TLDR. Sesquipedalian loquaciousness is used by journalists and lawyers to have a smug sense of superiority over others. Brevity and succinctness of communication is more effective.
IE: get to the damned point.
The only gun problem in the US is that not enough decent people own them while too many criminals do.
Like MAD Magazine in the 1960s, you make me laugh. MAD was a parody, however, you are not.
“Most all of the BLM protests were peaceful.” Prove that statement. Patently insane.
“The defund police hysteria … was meant to “de-militarize” them.” No, it was menat to portray ALL law enforcement as the enemy, just as was done in the late 1960s. Same cretins, same tactics, just older.
“…studies going back decades prove that the overwhelming majority of people killed by gunfire were killed by people they know including members of their own family.” Yep. But you also need to acknowledge that most are criminal acquaintances, gang members, even from different tribes, and mob situations. Of course many crooks know, and hang with each other- do you expect them to be a part of normal society?
“…more people were shot dead than at any time since the 1990s—though 2021…” Of course, since the 1990s era “3 strikes, you’re out” system has been done away with, and, since 2019 forward, more people who have been charged with acts of violence have just been let back out to prey on the general public without even the traditional woke “handslap” than at any time in US history. As per a trend towards general lawlessness, particualrly in the Leftist-controlled parts of the country, the above- no consequences for bad actions, is the cause. It will continue until the adults return home and take charge again. This will require increased amounts of “time outs”, not fewer, as well as an increased number of “bedrooms” to be sent to for exercising them.
So, to sum up: Police departments are militarized, hyper-violent, and a danger to everyone, so we should heavily restrict civilian gun ownership and instead rely on the government (that is, the police) to protect us. Makes perfect sense.
I read as far as “dacian”. I think it types to practice for someday it may have something to say.
Firearms since age 6. I have not had to kill a person as a civilian. Carried a firearm, since 74 in business because of large sums of money on me. A fried who didn’t was murdered with a hammer, to take the company’s money. Now in my 70s we are both easy marks…but we stay out of Democrat controlled, gun free/ no defense allowed zones, and the Democrat wrong side of the track! It is a natural an inalienable right, and Christian, to have to bear weapons to defend our lives and property.Christ said if you cannot afford sword, sell your clock and buy one AND he did not say store it away under a rock or in a closet. Bear it to defend ourselves.
We forbade our Governments from infringing on this right…but Democrats and RINOs don’t consult, respect or obey the the Law Our Bill of Rights!
The greatest problem today for concealed carry folks is the fact that, if you defend your life, you may end up in jail. They are specifically going after people who shoot to save their own lives. Kyle Rittenhouse is just such a case.
Before you shoot, you really have to think about the question of whether or not your life is at risk. Beyond that, you have to be able to prove it. In the split second it takes to defend against an attacker, that is a lot to think about!
Kyle Rittenhouse’s claim of self-defense I think is valid. But this guy didn’t think. For some idiotic reason he thought he had to be in the middle of a protest with a rifle. He thought he was obligated to protect businesses in a different state. This was a 17-year-old who didn’t think things through at all and now has a chance of going to prison for a long time.
Hope he wins, but Kyle Rittenhouse is not who you want to emulate. Don’t put yourself in a bad place if you don’t need to be there. There was no good reason for him to be there.
I carry, but I don’t knowingly go where trouble is. If, God forbid, trouble finds me at least I have a fighting chance.
Defending civilization against barbarians is a pretty good reason.
Going to Kenosha that night may not have been the most prudent decision, but heroism and prudence are usually at odds. I’m not going to emulate him because I’m well into middle age and have my own home and family to protect (mostly just by being a provider, although I’m ready if armed defense is necessary). I can’t go out and do what he did — but I hope others will.
Kyle Rittenhouse may have been imprudent, but he is also a hero. We need more people like him.
Have to agree with Ing, here, there was no good reason to be in Vietnam, either, or Korea or Iraq. WW2 has a question mark.
“The greatest problem today… if you defend your life, you may end up in jail.”
Well, a bigger problem may be that you, yourself, may wind up dead first if you don’t defend yourself…
“I carry, but I don’t knowingly go where trouble is.”
Sage advice many around here should consider..
People that say “follow the sconce” are not interested in science.
The people the run magazines like this couldn’t care any less what I think. The feeling is mutual.
People that say “follow the science” are not interested in science.
The people the run magazines like this couldn’t care any less what I think. The feeling is mutual.
Especially as science is turning political.
No. The anti-vaxxers and the Oompaloompa are trying to turn whether someone actually believe science and facts into some political litmus test.
That’s not the same thing.
Sure, Jan . . . keep telling yourself that. “some masks do work” – and then you cite N-95 masks. Any idea what an N-95 filters out 95% OF, Einstein??? (And for bonus points, what is the size of a COVID virus?).
It amuses me that people like you come on threads like this, and tell all us hicks how we’re “ignoring science”, citing talking points without support. Pro tip: That’s NOT science, nor is anything involving “concensus” (even if the ‘concensus’ is real). You might want to study up, and learn what the ‘scientific method’ actually involves.
People that suppress dissent are terrified of science.
Who? He writes for a magazine? Somebody want to fact check that?
David Frum and George Sorso should never have been allowed to become American citizens. They are traitors to the Bill of Rights. Which they have never believed in.
Shows us why our 2nd Amendment rights never seem to have advanced over the last 60 years under any President or Congressman that we might think is pro-2nd Amendment and supports our cause. Just a smoke screen from Republicans saying they are pro-2nd Amendment to get our votes and never do anything meaningful. We have had Nixon, Ford, Reagan, 2 Bushes, and Trump with little meaningful advancement of the 2nd Amendment for us. Out of these presidents Bush 2 and Trump had majorities in Congress to really do something to advance the 2nd Amendment and we have nothing to show for it, but a sunset on the AWB of 1994. Reagan was a anti-2nd Amendment president and California governor. We really do not know where these presidents and our Congressmen stand at all unless we look at their voting records. Talk is cheap without action from ones we vote for into office to support the 2nd Amendment. We should put our votes where the rubber meets the road. If, you got the votes and do nothing to advance the 2nd Amendment then something is wrong and you are voted out the next time around. Commiecrats advance their causes without any consideration of the other side of the aisle.
https://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/08/us/import-ban-on-assault-rifles-becomes-permanent.html
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/George-Bush-and-the-NRA.htm
https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-rights-under-president-ronald-reagan-721343
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/03/02/before-trump-defied-the-nra-ronald-reagan-took-on-the-gun-lobby
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-05-05-mn-54185-story.html
http://samuel-warde.com/2013/01/ronald-reagan-gun-rights-myth-debunked
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act
Dacian,
“Federal Investigations showed that Far Right Neo Nazi organizations like the Proud Boys were caught posing as BLM and burning buildings.”
You have made this statement several times and have provided no link to any of these investigation. You seem to feel this true, please provide a link.
“The defund police hysteria promoted by the jack booted Far Right ignore that “defund the police” was meant to “de-militarize” them. The government giving military tanks, flame throwers and other weapons of war and mass destruction (and even robotic bomb machines that have been already used) to completely untrained and totally out of control police departments make a mockery of the original job of police and that is community involvement, not jack booted mass murder, or using Nazi terror tactics which turn a country into an authoritarian state that the Far Right so worship and desire to create i.e. another Hitlerite White Supremacist Country based on the Nazi Germany of the 30’s.”
In the beginning no one knew what exactly defund the police meant. Not even those chanting the hashtag like drones. Antifa ( the idea with fascists rioting ) says it means to abolish the police completely, BLM says it is to reallocate police funds to community policing. Judging from the various articles from various left leaning commentators and bloggers, it means whatever they feel at the moment. Just as you assume of anyone that is right of center, we will assume it means you want vigilantism and no real police.
Now, what tanks and flame throwers are Police Departments getting? I haven’t seen a M1 Abrams or a M60 tank rolling around with police markings. Nor have I seem flame throwers issued to the PD. You have any photos to confirm this?
Those of us on the Right do not want a Authoritarian State, no matter the name you assign to it. Whether it is run by Communist’s, Socialists, Nazi’s, authoritarianism is is a deprivation of human dignity and should be defeated each time the head rises.
“Studies show you really are less safe with guns in the home, not even including accidents with them which double the risk”
Did you know if you have a knife in the home you are more likely to be cut by it than in a home without a knife? Sounds just as compelling as your statement, and just as stupid.
Not one of these studies allowed for factors such as criminal activity by non lawful owners.
“The America of the 40’s and 50’s is now history and the new reality is we now live in a country gone completely insane with gun violence and the sooner we do something about it the better off and the more safe everyone will be.”
You almost had it there. According to the left, firearm owners are less than they used to be Nationally. So the time period you refer had a larger percentage of gun owners if we were to believe you. Why is it violence where a firearm is used higher now than when more people owned guns? The guns are functionally the same, so it cannot be that.
You know the answer, we all know you know. But you will never voice it, you will keep repeating the same tired old mantra.
What do we do about the violent people? Over history we locked them away or we executed them based on the severity of their crime. I believe everyone deserves a 2nd chance in life, except in cases of truly heinous acts. I feel some people can change, turn their lives around, but a 3rd offense is a pattern, and that pattern is not changing the path they are on. the 3rd offense deserves no mercy nor should we advocate for those people to continue to prey on society.
What say you?
He’ll make a personal attack calling you a Jethro Nazi while not answering the question.
… and use three hundred words to tell you what can be summed up in three – he’s an idiot.
Did you know if you have a knife in the home you are more likely to be cut by it than in a home without a knife?
Well New Zealand just “fixed” that problem… The Government just banned the sale of knives after the recent stabbing incident… NOW there will be no more violence and killing… Oh wait… they didn’t ban cars, or hammers, or baseball bats, or crowbars… or fists… Seems like they’d get the hint after murder was declared illegal and yet people continued to murder…
Jeez, if they did that here in Texas, I’d have to start learning to cut roasts and BBQ with my SWORD!
cut roasts and BBQ with my SWORD!
Do it right and it will just fall apart, then you go all NEANDERTHAL and shred it (or tear it into chunks whichever you prefer) with your fingers… Mmmmm-Mmmmmm-mmm
to Former jackbooted storm trooper—————–
quote————————————the 3rd offense deserves no mercy nor should we advocate for those people to continue to prey on society.
What say you?————-quote
You really fell into the out house on this one. Nixon’s war on drugs and 3 strikes and your out was a massive and horrendously expensive total failure. People who were caught with 1 ounce of Marijuana and in on case a $1.00 VCR tape were incarcerated for 20 years costing the tax payers billions not millions of tax dollars (NPR)
Civilized societies do not treat drug use as a crime but as a curable disease and again hiring armies of jack booted and largely untrained police has been a social and economic disaster wasting billions of dollars.
Adding to pressure for change is the fact that despite a half-century of interdiction, America’s streets are flooded with more potent and dangerous drugs than ever before — primarily methamphetamines and the synthetic opioid fentanyl.
“Back in the day, when we would see 5, 10 kilograms of meth, that would make you a hero if you made a seizure like that,” said Matthew Donahue, the head of operations at the Drug Enforcement Administration.
As U.S. Corporations Face Reckoning Over Prescription Opioids, CEOs Keep Cashing In
NATIONAL
As U.S. Corporations Face Reckoning Over Prescription Opioids, CEOs Keep Cashing In
“Now it’s common for us to see 100-, 200- and 300-kilogram seizures of meth,” he added. “It doesn’t make a dent to the price.”
Police units carried out drug raids with military-style hardware that included body armor, assault weapons and tanks equipped with battering rams.
Studies show from the outset drug laws were implemented with a stark racial bias, leading to unprecedented levels of mass incarceration for Black and brown men.
As recently as 2018, Black men were nearly six times more likely than white men to be locked up in state or federal correctional facilities, according to the U.S. Justice Department.
Researchers have long concluded the pattern has far-reaching impacts on Black families, making it harder to find employment and housing, while also preventing many people of color with drug records from voting.
In a 1994 interview published in Harper’s Magazine, Nixon adviser John Ehrlichman suggested racial animus was among the motives shaping the drug war.
“We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the [Vietnam] War or Black,” Ehrlichman said. “But by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and Blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities.”
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/17/1006495476/after-50-years-of-the-war-on-drugs-what-good-is-it-doing-for-us
Dacian, you do love to remove context.
I stated: “What do we do about the violent people? Over history we locked them away or we executed them based on the severity of their crime. I believe everyone deserves a 2nd chance in life, except in cases of truly heinous acts. I feel some people can change, turn their lives around, but a 3rd offense is a pattern, and that pattern is not changing the path they are on. the 3rd offense deserves no mercy nor should we advocate for those people to continue to prey on society.”
Your reply immediately ignored that context trying frame I was speaking of drug abusers and dealers. I specifically was speaking of violent criminals. You failed to debate what I said, but you sure did debate what you wish I said.
” And you question me when I said they use flame throwers and tanks ???? Get real were you asleep in your cave when they used a flame thrower tank to incinerate the Branch Dividian’s.”
“And you kept silence when I mentioned robotic bomb carrying machines. Again were you asleep when they were shown blowing people up on the nightly news. Hitler and the Far Right Republican storm troopers all creamed their jeans when they used such horrific weapons of mass destruction.”
What I was replying to, your words:
“The defund police hysteria promoted by the jack booted Far Right ignore that “defund the police” was meant to “de-militarize” them. The government giving military tanks, flame throwers and other weapons of war and mass destruction (and even robotic bomb machines that have been already used) to completely untrained and totally out of control police departments make a mockery of the original job of police and that is community involvement, not jack booted mass murder, or using Nazi terror tactics which turn a country into an authoritarian state that the Far Right so worship and desire to create i.e. another Hitlerite White Supremacist Country based on the Nazi Germany of the 30’s.”
Police departments, not the Federal BATF, which is another case altogether.
The BATF did use 2 tanks, but no flamethrowers, at least none I found in the material lists the BATF took. Bill and Janet were pretty gungho on those people. Hmm, neither of which are on the Right. Again, you try to debate something different from the context of what is being said. Should the Police use a bomb robot to kill a suspect? No, they should use them as bomb finders and for intelligence in certain situations.
I also noted a reply to Ing where you stated:
“Don’t doge the original statement. I stated “law enforcement” used tanks and flamethrowers and robots with bombs and guess which way the majority of law enforcement always votes at the poles???????? They are mostly all rabid jack booted Republicans.
Sorry try again you failed because of your lack of reading comprehension.”
Again, this is what you said which does not say Law Enforcement:
“The defund police hysteria promoted by the jack booted Far Right ignore that “defund the police” was meant to “de-militarize” them. The government giving military tanks, flame throwers and other weapons of war and mass destruction (and even robotic bomb machines that have been already used) to completely untrained and totally out of control police departments make a mockery of the original job of police and that is community involvement, not jack booted mass murder, or using Nazi terror tactics which turn a country into an authoritarian state that the Far Right so worship and desire to create i.e. another Hitlerite White Supremacist Country based on the Nazi Germany of the 30’s.
You seem to confuse your own posts and the words you use. You blame others for pointing out fallacies in your posts then say they have reading comprehension issues. No, you are the one with the issues. You can do better, and you must do better if you want this authoritarian state to take hold. Good thing they are not depending on you to make it happen, and remember, they off the useful idiots pretty quick too. Right after they come for the rest of us.
Dacian is correct, those policies were FAR too expensive, my vote would be for “3 strikes and you’re dead”, that last ounce of marijuana gets you shot in the face at a cost of fiddy sents. I’m sure that’s what he was meaning.
To Former Jack booted storm trooper.
And you question me when I said they use flame throwers and tanks ???? Get real were you asleep in your cave when they used a flame thrower tank to incinerate the Branch Dividian’s.
And you kept silence when I mentioned robotic bomb carrying machines. Again were you asleep when they were shown blowing people up on the nightly news. Hitler and the Far Right Republican storm troopers all creamed their jeans when they used such horrific weapons of mass destruction.
Now try and tell me the Far Right do not want a 1 party authoritarian state and of course without freedom of speech when they crush the free press. Were you again asleep when Nixon and Trump called the free press “The enemy”. Get real at least be man enough to stand up for what “you really desire”. You fool no one except yourself.
“…they used a flame thrower tank to incinerate the Branch Dividian’s.”
The single extant example is a Democrat administration’s ATF burning religious folks alive. But please, do tell me more about that right-wing police state.
Don’t doge the original statement. I stated “law enforcement” used tanks and flamethrowers and robots with bombs and guess which way the majority of law enforcement always votes at the poles???????? They are mostly all rabid jack booted Republicans.
Sorry try again you failed because of your lack of reading comprehension.
That was a combat engineering vehicle “borrowed” from the Army. Also the smoke grenades used produced poison gas when used in confined spaces.
Yes, Waco was a complete cluster-f**k. Expect more if Chipman gets the directorship
That was a freaking TANK “borrowed” from the Army over the objections of the General responsible for it, who refused completely to supply the FBI’s requested ammunition for both the main gun (antitank cannon) and the coax .50 BMG. Combat engineering, my ass. He also refused to allow any of his trained soldiers to participate, it was FBI agents driving the tank. That general was the only hero of the encounter.
Cain killed Able .
Killing is in humans blood.
What caliber did Cain use? Was it an assault rifle?
Shame about the “failing” Atlantic… Heard they were losing something like five million bucks a month… Where WILL the resident Trolls and the RINOs go for their “truths” if the Atlantic fails…
The Atlantic will persevere.
Some !liberal billionaire will fund it.
The propaganda must continue.
Bloomberg’s next fleeting interest?
“The Atlantic will persevere.”
Well, yeah- look at CNN and MSNBC. What keeps them going?
Wasted fortunes of wealthy power seekers. Probably some freedom hating gov entities as well.
Maybe Jeff Bozos will expand his money losing publications empire… He’s always looking for tax writeoffs…
Maybe they’ll rename it ” Ocean of Lies” to more accurately indicate its content.
Guns don’t work. That’s why the Elite surround themselves with well trained people carrying guns we aren’t allowed to have.
“Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government (or the Elite….Poster added) but illegal for the citizenry.” Jefferson
“….gaslight them into thinking that guns really don’t protect them.”
First American Revolution over taxation without representation.
Gomer opines…”SURPRISE!!! SURPRISE!!!! Guns were involved.”
Second American Revolution over taxation BY representation…and a plethora of other tyrannical acts.
Gomer again opines, “SUPRISE!!! SURPRISE!!! Guns gonna be involved again.”
And, that Boys and Girls…..even Gomer gets it…..is the total WHY behind the Left’s gun control fetish, protecting Libturd asses, for what they have done and intend to do, from Patriots with ARs and high…er, standard….capacity magazines proclaiming…”ENOUGH. NO MORE”
The “failing Atlantic”?
Most print media has been forced to depend heavily on advertising on the internet to make any profit, a constant struggle. Doesn’t matter how their political bias leans, that’s a fact of the era we live in. If a liberal or conservative leaning outlet has financial troubles, frankly it doesn’t mean all that much. Financial troubles have been the normal operating status of these legacy media outlets for a long time now.
Of course the liberal leaning media outlets are wrong, deliriously wacky, on how to fight human violence. This is balanced by how correct they are in condemning such right wing extremist activity as election stealing, sedition and insane conspiracy theories.
For these two camps there is something of a wandering line of demarcation between them. On one side is their craziest, dumbest ideologically driven position on some issue of the moment (such as anything AOC has to say about anything). On the other side is good sense and practical realism. The fault lies in the two sides being absolutely incapable of seeing their own incorrectness or accepting responsibility for their errors in judgement.
Even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
https://www.mediaite.com/print/the-atlantic-editor-jeffrey-goldberg-reportedly-freaked-magazine-will-shutter-unless-revenue-grows-dramatically/
Does it get ANY better?… The newly formed Taliban government was introduced yesterday in their NEW Capital Building (the abandoned billion dollar plus X-U.S. Embassy) and “shockingly” they have selected “Bandhar the Butcher”, an ex-Guantanamo detainee accused of helping plan the 9/11 attacks, released by B H Obummer in the Bergdahl debacle, as their “Dear Leader”… I see a Great and Prosperous future for the people of Afghanistan… OBTW: the remainder of the leadership is comprised mostly of individuals on the terrorist watch/no-fly AND FBI “Most Wanted” lists and most have bounties ranging from one to ten million dollars… This bodes well for America and those Afghans who did manage to escape (including our “heroic” newly minted Sarasota Deputy Sheriff)? Probably not… Meanwhile Americans are being held hostage after being denied departure by “Braindeads” State Dept and turned over to the Taliban along with the flight manifests, Good job there, “just fuk em all to death”, right?…
A. Police are violent, racist psychopaths.
B. Only police should have guns.
Pick ONE.
So why does the Secret Service’s presidential security detail use handguns, given all these risks?
The comments here merely depict, with the usual defense of savagery and slaughter, the state of gun addiction in an endangered country that can’t stop the irrational need to make guns an everyday part of life and sell, sell, sell ’em all. Like heroin addicts, gun addicts can’t see anyway other than or beyond the pleasure and the need they feel with a murder weapon in their hands. They need that fix, that gun in their hands to feel complete, to feel “safe” (what a joke), to feel justified about a misunderstood and archaically irrelevant 2nd Amendment. So the slaughter will continue, unabated, because gun addiction is as strong as any addiction in our world, a world debased and bloodied by the rationalization that enriches the death merchants, tears families and communities apart, and discharges (the perfect word) political attacks on any viewpoint that questions or confronts this addiction to weapons of personal and social destruction–the attacks you see right here and which I have no doubt will be aimed (again, the perfect word) at me.
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