Isn’t commonalty a thing? Especially if you don’t reload…I have an old friend telling me I should go 308. While whining he can’t get 380 or primers of any sort😏
If I was starting from scratch today with no guns. I would buy any shotgun I wanted as long as it was 12 ga. Any rifle so long as it was .30-30. Any handgun so long as revolvers were .357 and autos were 9mm.
Not a typo…he bought his girls 380’s(3) and he can’t find ammo or primers.ANY primers. I CAN find 9mm. Which he should have got his females…this was in April so maybe he got some 380😏
.30-30 is the perfect round for an open/aperture sighted hunting/defense rifle.
Not sure where you’re going with that, Champ. .308 and 6.5 CM use the same primer. If the second number wasn’t a typo, .380 and 9mm use the same primer.
I routinely check a couple big box and a local gun store. I can’t remember the last time I saw 6.5 CM. .223, .308, .30-06, .243, 7.62×39, yes. .380, .40, and .45 every couple weeks, but much more 9mm. .357 twice, .38 once. .44 Mag once. Not much lasts more than 24-48 hours. I usually can score a sleeve of primers once a month, including small pistol. The more common calibers aren’t readily available, but they’re there. Some, like .17, .300BO, and 6.5 Grendel can sit around for weeks.
Through 2020 commonality was a bad thing. 9mm vanished first and fastest but also came back first and fastest. Meanwhile all year I was looking at almost empty ammo shelfs that still had 6.5, 300 win mag, 10mm and other less common calibers. Less common means less people are trying to buy 1000 rounds of it.
I’m a pistol shooter. I’ve never been a long range guy. Probably partly due to being blind as a bat and having issues using scopes. But I did pick up an 80% .308 lower last year. I can’t think of a good reason not to put together uppers in both .308 and 6.5.
My uncle had a Savage 99 lever in 308… He LOVED that rifle! And hunting in western Pennsylvania he got a buck for 30-something years straight with that rifle!!!
.308 for the win, especially if your rifle fires 7.62 NATO w/o issue.
I have an AR10 that needed an adjustable gas block for 7.62.
I was all about Gal Gadot tying me up with the lasso of truth.
Then I saw WW1984. I’m still not right in the head after that.
This guy has become my favorite non gun You Tube channel.
Warning: Spoilers for that complete trash movie.
Yep the Critical Drinker is a gem.
6.5 is great up until you can’t find the ammo for it while .308/7.62 is surplus. I like my .308.
Gotta jump in. I recently bought a very nice M1A. Like new. 1978 mfg. Four digit serial number. TRW bolt. Lots of GI M-14 parts. OP rod etc. Picked up ten genuine M-14 mags still in the wrapper and an ass load of GI ball 7.62 NATO in stripper clips. (.40 cents a rd) This stuff is still out there if you know where to look. I bought it out of an estate. Anyway, if you think .308 is obsolete stand in the open at 500 yards and see what happens.
6.5 Creedmoor is a fad. It’s not even as good at long range as the older .308 based .260 Remington. It was designed to use longer, sleeker, heavier bullets but it doesn’t have the case capacity to put them to use. I bought some Nosler RDF rounds for my .260 and did a comparison. The 130gr. .260 holds supersonic for ~75 extra yards over the 140gr. Creedmoor round, and drop and windage are both lower in the .260 all the way out to 2000 yards. All the Creedmoor has going for it is a slick marketing campaign and a whole bunch of suckers.
What’s interesting about this to me is looking at Hodgdon’s web site the 260 Rem would still fit in an LR308 mag with the heaviest bullet weights. Otherwise you get about 50fps with the creed, maybe longer barrel life and a bit less powder use. Maybe. I never realized how close they were. At that point I’d argue factory barrel twists and ammo selection would make it a win or lose.
I think part of that is manufacturers don’t want to have to explain that if you don’t have the right barrel twist that the ammo may not shoot worth a darn in your gun or you need to test and it may be a mixed bag because it may not stabilize. The ammo and the gun are a package of sorts and due to that it’s “easier” to make a new cartridge than to educate the end users. It also doesn’t sell reloading dies, more ammo or new guns either.
If you look at Hornady for instance they have over 10 factory loadings for 6.5 Creedmoor and 2 for 260 Remington. The loads for the 260 aren’t bad (one hunting and one match) but there are some significantly better ones for the Creed if you’re pushing longer distances. To capitalize on the good parts of 260 Rem you’re talking boutique ammo or reloading.
Remington had this happen with the 6 Remington vs the 243 Winchester. The 1:12 twist didn’t do as well as 1:10 and therefore their sales sucked. They went to 1:10 but the damage was done. Even now the 243 Winchester is arguably a victim to progress in that most people would likely prefer a 1:8 or even 1:7 if the bullets are heavy for caliber. The other thing about the 243 Winchester is that the 115 VLDs are too long for an LR308 mag. Not a problem for all but for those who want it that’s a problem. The 6 Creed has a very tangible advantage there IMO although it’s certainly a niche. That said I would suspect that 243 is wholly adequate even in say a 108gr bullet for most users and the ranges they will 1-Be able to shoot at and 2-Actually have the skill to shoot at.
Remington introduced the .260 as a hunting round and a way to squeeze a 6.5×55 Swede into a .308 magazine, as well as picking up the few extra fps handloaders who weren’t shooting 100 year old military surplus rifles were loading. What got the attention of Hornady (who introduce the 6.5 Creedmoor) was the attention the .260 round got from serious long range shooters. The .260 was capable of mimicking the .300 Win Mag ballistics with much less recoil. Naturally they weren’t doing this with Remington Core Lokt factory ammunition or Remington 700 factory rifles.
So yes, the .260 did suffer from slow twist rates to a degree, but not the same way as the 6mm Remington. The 6mm Rem’s initial twist rates prevented it from using the bullets most hunters wanted, not a handful of long range plinkers. The .260 is and always has been an excellent hunting round, similar to the popular 7mm/08. What got the Creedmoor going was selling 1000 yard capability to a bunch of wannabees. If they had made a similar case stretched out to fit a .30-06 magazine they might have been on to something, but as it is the case doesn’t have the capacity to validate the cartridge’s own raison d’etre.
My personal .260 is a Ruger Hawkeye RSI with an 18-1/2″ barrel and full length stock. Not exactly what you’d pick out for 1000 yard shooting, but it does have a 1/8 twist rate and does have the distinction of producing the tightest group I’ve ever shot – from a bag, not a sled though. I would like to ring some steel at 1000 yards with it some day anyway.
Jimmy, I respect your comment and as much as I like .308 it is incorrect. God carries an M-1 rifle and a 1911. 30-06 and .45 ACP respectively. Jesus backs him up with a Browning BAR.
Besides, I already have .308/7.62×51 rifles. So, that’s the ammo that I procure. I haven’t used or bought 6.5 Creedmore firearms to this point so, I don’t see starting now.
Been around this stuff a lot of years, decades. Don’t really give a rats a$$ if someone likes creedmore or 308 better. Been running 308 for a long time, it does more than I can with enough punch to do anything I’ll need it to do. A new cartridge doesn’t negate others. Like 44 magnum? Dump it… there’s 500 S&W that makes it obsolete. Insert Eye Roll.
I’ve no dog in this fight, owning neither a .308 (7.62 X 51) or a 6.5 Creedmore. If I want to reach out and touch someone, I’ll rely on my trusty ol’ .300 Winchester Magnum. It’s never failed in 40 years of hunting, to takedown what I aimed at.
Beats the heck out of my shoulder, but that’s the price one pays if one wants energy and distance.
I already have a couple .308/7.62 rifles. Just don’t see the need to stuff more rifles into an already over stuffed safe. Want to talk obsolete? How about my 50/120 Sharps? Or the old 45/70? Just because it isn’t chambered in the latest AR type carbine, does not make a cartridge obsolete. A whole lot of deer have been taken with what are considered obsolete cartridges. And a whole lot of men were killed with obsolete 44/40 or 45LC SA revolvers. Out dated, or perhaps obsolescent, but not completely obsolete. And, sometimes, old school, old technology, is not just usable, but quite effective. Just like some of us old men out here in flyover country.
308’s an all-rounder workhorse. There’s calibers than punch harder up close, or group tighter at range, or fly flatter out far, but 308 will do a solid job at each. And you can get 10-15 reloads out of a quality case.
Fellers ya’ll be missin the truth here. Learn how to play real good with what you got then you can play with anything. The top ten longest recorded non fifty cal kills were 308 until the 338 Lappua came along.
Generally emphasizing performance over tradition, I began this article (and the linked comparison article, which overwhelmingly favors the Creedmoor) with a slight preference for the latter.
On the other hand, I do my best to be self-aware and honest about my limitations – one of which (shared in common with a large majority of other shooters) is the inability to hit, identify, or really even see anything a thousand yards away.
Reading the earlier article and comments actually increased my appreciation for 7.62. Besides cherry picking, it relies almost entirely on stats about a performance envelope that is completely irrelevant to most humans.
As of the year 1900, there are no guns that are obsolete. There are just guns that are made better and are more accurate. Also the ammo is made better as well. But old ammo is just as deadly.
.308 cases will take M2AP bullets, which are superior in war (or a 2nd American Revolution) at ranges less than 500 yards to 6.5CM for defeating body armor. I’ll change my mind if someone has a video demonstrating 6.5 achieving more pass-throughs than M2AP in Level III+ UHMWPE or composite ceramic armor.
However, 7.62×51 is still a mainstay of our military’s squad machine gun arsenal. For that reason, availability is still high and it is WAY cheaper than 6.5CM at this time.
Must be sweeps week. Butch Babes and ropes.
Isn’t commonalty a thing? Especially if you don’t reload…I have an old friend telling me I should go 308. While whining he can’t get 380 or primers of any sort😏
If I was starting from scratch today with no guns. I would buy any shotgun I wanted as long as it was 12 ga. Any rifle so long as it was .30-30. Any handgun so long as revolvers were .357 and autos were 9mm.
I would buy pellet guns instead of rimfires.
Not a typo…he bought his girls 380’s(3) and he can’t find ammo or primers.ANY primers. I CAN find 9mm. Which he should have got his females…this was in April so maybe he got some 380😏
.30-30 is the perfect round for an open/aperture sighted hunting/defense rifle.
Not sure where you’re going with that, Champ. .308 and 6.5 CM use the same primer. If the second number wasn’t a typo, .380 and 9mm use the same primer.
Can he get 6.5 primers?
I routinely check a couple big box and a local gun store. I can’t remember the last time I saw 6.5 CM. .223, .308, .30-06, .243, 7.62×39, yes. .380, .40, and .45 every couple weeks, but much more 9mm. .357 twice, .38 once. .44 Mag once. Not much lasts more than 24-48 hours. I usually can score a sleeve of primers once a month, including small pistol. The more common calibers aren’t readily available, but they’re there. Some, like .17, .300BO, and 6.5 Grendel can sit around for weeks.
Through 2020 commonality was a bad thing. 9mm vanished first and fastest but also came back first and fastest. Meanwhile all year I was looking at almost empty ammo shelfs that still had 6.5, 300 win mag, 10mm and other less common calibers. Less common means less people are trying to buy 1000 rounds of it.
I’m a pistol shooter. I’ve never been a long range guy. Probably partly due to being blind as a bat and having issues using scopes. But I did pick up an 80% .308 lower last year. I can’t think of a good reason not to put together uppers in both .308 and 6.5.
Checking the ammo shelves became a bit of a hobby during these weird times. Oddly enough, I saw 10mm when everything else was gone.
@jwm: Gal Gadot butch? We will have to disagree, sir.
Wearing armor and throwing massive ass kickings ain’t butch? And she’s not the only one in that photo.
I think you’re confusing bad@ss with butch. They are two very, very different things.
6.5 whinebabies must have created this bit of trash 🙂 whimpy fuckers.
Don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think.
Up to 600m, not much in it. If you’re set up for .308 and keep your distance under 600m, stick with .308.
10000 round barrel life with .308 versus 3500 rounds with 6.5 Creedmore. YMMV.
It takes 600 yards for the Crapmoor to match the energy of a .308, not to mention the .308 makes a bigger hole. Ammo’s cheaper too.
Better selection of bullet weights and designs with the .308 as well.
Harumph!
I think your numbers are a bit off, by a factor of 100.
Savage model 99 lever gun in .308, that’s one supreme deer whacking machine!
If you do manage to wear out the barrel (I’ve seen it done!) just re-barrel or sleeve the old one. Back In Business! 🙂
My uncle had a Savage 99 lever in 308… He LOVED that rifle! And hunting in western Pennsylvania he got a buck for 30-something years straight with that rifle!!!
Truly one of the all time great American rifles!
I miss my 99c, my favorite deer rifle, .308 is all I ever needed
Kinda tired of the 6.5 bandwagon many are on.
Dang, is it Creedmonth again? I must have missed the memo.
Why not own both, 308 and 6.5? Does anybody just own one wrench or one screwdriver? Heck, snap-on is a thing because of tool whores like me.
However, Gal Gadot…ouch! 🙂
She could tie me up in her truth rope. Just as long as she doesn’t start singing any commie Lennon songs.
Is what ear plugs are made for..lol.
I would not want the lasso of truth on me though….”too many questions such as “Which is better 9mm or .45?”
.308 for the win, especially if your rifle fires 7.62 NATO w/o issue.
I have an AR10 that needed an adjustable gas block for 7.62.
I was all about Gal Gadot tying me up with the lasso of truth.
Then I saw WW1984. I’m still not right in the head after that.
This guy has become my favorite non gun You Tube channel.
Warning: Spoilers for that complete trash movie.
Yep the Critical Drinker is a gem.
6.5 is great up until you can’t find the ammo for it while .308/7.62 is surplus. I like my .308.
Gotta jump in. I recently bought a very nice M1A. Like new. 1978 mfg. Four digit serial number. TRW bolt. Lots of GI M-14 parts. OP rod etc. Picked up ten genuine M-14 mags still in the wrapper and an ass load of GI ball 7.62 NATO in stripper clips. (.40 cents a rd) This stuff is still out there if you know where to look. I bought it out of an estate. Anyway, if you think .308 is obsolete stand in the open at 500 yards and see what happens.
While I agree… the 308 still puts pigs down harder.
6.5 Creedmoor is a fad. It’s not even as good at long range as the older .308 based .260 Remington. It was designed to use longer, sleeker, heavier bullets but it doesn’t have the case capacity to put them to use. I bought some Nosler RDF rounds for my .260 and did a comparison. The 130gr. .260 holds supersonic for ~75 extra yards over the 140gr. Creedmoor round, and drop and windage are both lower in the .260 all the way out to 2000 yards. All the Creedmoor has going for it is a slick marketing campaign and a whole bunch of suckers.
What’s interesting about this to me is looking at Hodgdon’s web site the 260 Rem would still fit in an LR308 mag with the heaviest bullet weights. Otherwise you get about 50fps with the creed, maybe longer barrel life and a bit less powder use. Maybe. I never realized how close they were. At that point I’d argue factory barrel twists and ammo selection would make it a win or lose.
I think part of that is manufacturers don’t want to have to explain that if you don’t have the right barrel twist that the ammo may not shoot worth a darn in your gun or you need to test and it may be a mixed bag because it may not stabilize. The ammo and the gun are a package of sorts and due to that it’s “easier” to make a new cartridge than to educate the end users. It also doesn’t sell reloading dies, more ammo or new guns either.
If you look at Hornady for instance they have over 10 factory loadings for 6.5 Creedmoor and 2 for 260 Remington. The loads for the 260 aren’t bad (one hunting and one match) but there are some significantly better ones for the Creed if you’re pushing longer distances. To capitalize on the good parts of 260 Rem you’re talking boutique ammo or reloading.
Remington had this happen with the 6 Remington vs the 243 Winchester. The 1:12 twist didn’t do as well as 1:10 and therefore their sales sucked. They went to 1:10 but the damage was done. Even now the 243 Winchester is arguably a victim to progress in that most people would likely prefer a 1:8 or even 1:7 if the bullets are heavy for caliber. The other thing about the 243 Winchester is that the 115 VLDs are too long for an LR308 mag. Not a problem for all but for those who want it that’s a problem. The 6 Creed has a very tangible advantage there IMO although it’s certainly a niche. That said I would suspect that 243 is wholly adequate even in say a 108gr bullet for most users and the ranges they will 1-Be able to shoot at and 2-Actually have the skill to shoot at.
Remington introduced the .260 as a hunting round and a way to squeeze a 6.5×55 Swede into a .308 magazine, as well as picking up the few extra fps handloaders who weren’t shooting 100 year old military surplus rifles were loading. What got the attention of Hornady (who introduce the 6.5 Creedmoor) was the attention the .260 round got from serious long range shooters. The .260 was capable of mimicking the .300 Win Mag ballistics with much less recoil. Naturally they weren’t doing this with Remington Core Lokt factory ammunition or Remington 700 factory rifles.
So yes, the .260 did suffer from slow twist rates to a degree, but not the same way as the 6mm Remington. The 6mm Rem’s initial twist rates prevented it from using the bullets most hunters wanted, not a handful of long range plinkers. The .260 is and always has been an excellent hunting round, similar to the popular 7mm/08. What got the Creedmoor going was selling 1000 yard capability to a bunch of wannabees. If they had made a similar case stretched out to fit a .30-06 magazine they might have been on to something, but as it is the case doesn’t have the capacity to validate the cartridge’s own raison d’etre.
My personal .260 is a Ruger Hawkeye RSI with an 18-1/2″ barrel and full length stock. Not exactly what you’d pick out for 1000 yard shooting, but it does have a 1/8 twist rate and does have the distinction of producing the tightest group I’ve ever shot – from a bag, not a sled though. I would like to ring some steel at 1000 yards with it some day anyway.
Gov, you beat me to it about .260 Rem’s initial marketing as a hunting cartridge.
6.5×55 in a .308 case.
6.5CM is .260 in a shorter case. And better brass life from what I hear.
.308/7.62×51 has more energy where it counts: inside 300 meters.
.308 is God’s round.
Jimmy, I respect your comment and as much as I like .308 it is incorrect. God carries an M-1 rifle and a 1911. 30-06 and .45 ACP respectively. Jesus backs him up with a Browning BAR.
So then the Holy Spirit has Tommy Guns?
Keeping in the 30-06 and .45 ACP tradition of the Trinity?
My kinda guys!!!
Besides, I already have .308/7.62×51 rifles. So, that’s the ammo that I procure. I haven’t used or bought 6.5 Creedmore firearms to this point so, I don’t see starting now.
My only .308 is an AR 10. So if I decide to buy a bolt gun, I a, pretty much open to anything. The Creed is certainly a tempting choice.
Been around this stuff a lot of years, decades. Don’t really give a rats a$$ if someone likes creedmore or 308 better. Been running 308 for a long time, it does more than I can with enough punch to do anything I’ll need it to do. A new cartridge doesn’t negate others. Like 44 magnum? Dump it… there’s 500 S&W that makes it obsolete. Insert Eye Roll.
Well, it’s CreedMOOR not CreedLESS, duh!
Don’t you mean CreedMOOPS?
Both
The answer is both
I’ll be right back, need to run out and get a few 6.5 Creedmore uppers because yeah I need another money pit.
Ballistically better? Yes. Ballistically better enough to make a difference for most shooters? You be the judge.
*goes shopping for pork chop pectorals and a hi-tech fleece bullet stops*
No question. Go with the cheaper and available AMMO .308
I actually have a .308/7.62×51, so I’m keeping it.
I’ve no dog in this fight, owning neither a .308 (7.62 X 51) or a 6.5 Creedmore. If I want to reach out and touch someone, I’ll rely on my trusty ol’ .300 Winchester Magnum. It’s never failed in 40 years of hunting, to takedown what I aimed at.
Beats the heck out of my shoulder, but that’s the price one pays if one wants energy and distance.
I already have a couple .308/7.62 rifles. Just don’t see the need to stuff more rifles into an already over stuffed safe. Want to talk obsolete? How about my 50/120 Sharps? Or the old 45/70? Just because it isn’t chambered in the latest AR type carbine, does not make a cartridge obsolete. A whole lot of deer have been taken with what are considered obsolete cartridges. And a whole lot of men were killed with obsolete 44/40 or 45LC SA revolvers. Out dated, or perhaps obsolescent, but not completely obsolete. And, sometimes, old school, old technology, is not just usable, but quite effective. Just like some of us old men out here in flyover country.
308’s an all-rounder workhorse. There’s calibers than punch harder up close, or group tighter at range, or fly flatter out far, but 308 will do a solid job at each. And you can get 10-15 reloads out of a quality case.
Yes the 308 is obsolete, the 30-06 surpassed it.
Fellers ya’ll be missin the truth here. Learn how to play real good with what you got then you can play with anything. The top ten longest recorded non fifty cal kills were 308 until the 338 Lappua came along.
Generally emphasizing performance over tradition, I began this article (and the linked comparison article, which overwhelmingly favors the Creedmoor) with a slight preference for the latter.
On the other hand, I do my best to be self-aware and honest about my limitations – one of which (shared in common with a large majority of other shooters) is the inability to hit, identify, or really even see anything a thousand yards away.
Reading the earlier article and comments actually increased my appreciation for 7.62. Besides cherry picking, it relies almost entirely on stats about a performance envelope that is completely irrelevant to most humans.
.308 is a mans round.
As of the year 1900, there are no guns that are obsolete. There are just guns that are made better and are more accurate. Also the ammo is made better as well. But old ammo is just as deadly.
The people of Cuba Venezuela and even Hong Kong could really use some “obsolete” firearms.
The CCP were smart in getting the Triads on their side. After all, they are ideologically close.
.308 cases will take M2AP bullets, which are superior in war (or a 2nd American Revolution) at ranges less than 500 yards to 6.5CM for defeating body armor. I’ll change my mind if someone has a video demonstrating 6.5 achieving more pass-throughs than M2AP in Level III+ UHMWPE or composite ceramic armor.
However, 7.62×51 is still a mainstay of our military’s squad machine gun arsenal. For that reason, availability is still high and it is WAY cheaper than 6.5CM at this time.