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Did he have an optic on his gun? I haven’t actually looked into that and haven’t come across anything. But…either way…it’s a valid point. My confidence of making quick, extremely precise hits inside 20-ish yards is a wash iron sights vs optic, but extend the range out from there and the optic-equipped gun starts pulling away harder and harder.

 

 

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68 COMMENTS

  1. I tried a Trijicon RMR on a Glock g20 and it just didn’t work for me. Even out to 100 yards I have no problem with TruGlo sites but my holdovers took a little bit to learn.

    • Expecting dacian to show up to call you a reckless terrorist for using night sights because of that one time with the cop and the son any moment now.

      I use them on my SR9c too, so that makes two reckless terrorists.

      • Have one with tritium, have one with glow in the dark dots, getting one plain open irons. If I feel the need to change them I will but happy so far.

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    • A pro would not even try to hit a man at over 50 yards and even then he’d consider it luck to get a hit THAT’S WHY the pros carry bloody H K 9mm And having a red-spot does not mean a Jack Shite If you’ve got time to line up a shot a 50 with a bloody handgun the bugger has already slotted you! Why the hell do you THINK Soldiers have Semi-Auto Assault Rifles?. Even with those the average engagement is at between 50 and 200 mtrs

      • You realize that the army and marines both have to shoot and hit that far reliably and the army is hardly considered pro by most shooter’s standards right? Ah who am I kidding, Jerry try some new material this dog don’t hunt

      • Bugger off tea swilling bloody British wanker 😁

        “Semi auto assault rife” is an oxymoron.
        Assault rifles aren’t semi auto.
        Semi autos are just rifles.
        Armies don’t use semi auto rifles.

        The Indiana shooting showed that sometimes we need to shoot our pistols from longer distances. I’m so glad that Indiana man was armed and skilled.

      • I had to Qualify with a junky, used up 1911 in the Marine Corps in the late 60s at 50 yards, I qualified expert annually. MAYBE that lack of confidence is ONE of the failure points of the Brits, I train at 30 and 50 yards with my big guns (10mm, 45 ACP, 357 magnum), at 20 yards with my compacts (9mm) and all three with my old AMT .22 Automag II (Irwindale) w/6 inch barrel.

        • “….that lack of confidence is ONE of the failure points of the Brits…..”

          Well stated MM.

  2. I’d be hard pressed hitting a gun wielding perp at 40-50 yards accurately. Especially 8 out of 10 shots. Then again I have no plans going to the local shopping mall(a gang infested dystopian nightmare)…

    • During an advanced tactical course I took not long ago, we did the usual 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 25 yard shots. Then the instructor added 50 and 100. It isn’t easy, but certainly possible.

      The argument against longer distances is, of course, the logic that “if the perp is that far away, an aggressive prosecutor may argue that you must have had time to run away instead of shoot”. But the argument for training at those distances is the “Eli Dicken” scenario of having to take the shot to save another innocent life in the path of the perp.

      Train accordingly.

    • Quote: “(a gang infested dystopian nightmare)…”

      Now days there lots of places that fit that description….some complete cities.

  3. guess it depends on your edc. mine are a s&w 610 6.5″ barrel and a ruger super redhawk with a 7.5″. practice is one handed, double action, at 100 yards, with iron sights… normally carry the 610 with 6 on board and 4 full moonclips for a total of 30 rounds.

    • My Security Six with a 6 in. barrel in .357 mag shoots like a rifle. Only weak spot is the user but he does ok. Carry it in a shoulder during the cold months but a smaller sp 101 during hot weather months.

      • “My Security Six with a 6 in. barrel in .357 mag shoots like a rifle. ”

        IMO- you need a better rifle… Just saying

      • So does my Security Six. I am confident shooting groundhogs out to about 75 yards with mine. I would not trade or sell that revolver for the world.

    • Why don’t more revolver guys carry a gun with an 8 Round cylinder? I know there are 7 and 8 shot .357s out there.

      • Balancing capacity with concealment? More cartridges generally means larger cylinder which means bigger bump under your shirt.

      • I OWB a S&W 627 snub when the mood hits. Makes sense when I’ve fallen out of practice with the plastic guns. Really doesn’t print any more than any full sized semi. Work polo is black and loose. If anyone has noticed, no one’s said anything.

      • Fewer revolvers in circulation and 8 shots are relatively new (20ish years that I kinda remember starting to see them) paired with revolver guys not being exactly an early adopter crowd at large would be my guess but liked the look of the 8 shot cylinder.

      • I have both the S&W 7 and 8 shooters. Both make great woods guns that I wouldn’t hesitate to carry in areas where two legged predators are much more common. They are more difficult to conceal for sure. For all the hate the plastic autos get among revolver nuts, there’s nothing quite like a double stack subcompact in terms of easy to carry firepower.

      • Accuracy is paramount. Hitting the predator with the first to 3 shots does not warrant the need for more in the cylinder. Also, practice with your speed loaders.

  4. Have no problem with my G29 (10mm with G20 mags and extensions for 16 plus 1) or the P90 (45 APC) out to 50 yds (both equipped with Tru Glo sights and lasers), never tried them at 100 yds never felt the need I have rifles for that.

  5. Y’all know you should be stretching the comfort limits when ya go. It don’t make good IG posts so ya don’t. Now ya wanna pick apart someone’s doings cause they are getting the attention

  6. The whole 25 yards thing was for common criminals, not mass shooters.

    Nothing wrong with modern optics. I have astigmatism so it’s irons for me. If i could do dots, I probably would.

    A J frame? Yeah, right. Semi automatics are over 100 years old. Plenty of vetting there.

    • I have the same issue with astigamatism and red dots. Look at the Holosun 507C or K with the ACSS reticle. Chevron in a giant circle. Or circle dot. It’s the only red dot pistol sight that doesn’t flare, bloom or become a squiggly line.

  7. What’s the spread for a 3.5 mil red-dot at 40 yards?

    • for yards……

      Estimated:

      3.5 MOA at 40 yards is 1.4 inches

      exact:

      a dot 3.5 MOA is 3.6645″ at 100 yards and 1.4658″ at 40 yards (its 0.036645″ per yard)

    • I second that! This past Sunday was hitting a 6″ plate at 40yds 5 of 5 most times with my edc 642. Was hitting a 15″ truck rim at about 110yds maybe 70% of the time. With my own slightly +p hand loads.. Snubbies are way more accurate than most people think.

      • There is a difference between lobbing bullets and getting hits on a target and aimed point accuracy on a target.

        • A hit is a hit doesn’t matter the trajectory it took getting there. It got there.
          I’m not saying a snubby is a long range weapon, just that with practice it is totally possible to make hits much farther than most people think.

      • 5 in under 10sec. sure but my reloads ain’t that fast. Jerry M. I’m not. CZ75 or even 1911 no problem. Wasn’t even trying to be fast just doing it for fun.

  9. Considering an old man taught the boy how to shoot that is one of the stupidest captions ever.

  10. Point. Shoot.Repeat. Do it enough and eventually you’ll start hitting what your not aiming at.

    • KVS FTW!
      When I regularly shoot my EDC (PPQ 45 w/Trijicon tritium sights), I can put all 12 rds on an 8″ target at 25yds in under 15 second. This is from a ‘low ready’ position, not from holster.

      Unfortunately, it takes over 400rds per month to maintain that skill level.

      I’m just as accurate when I shoot my HK P7 M13 regularly (Trijicon Bright and Tough tritium sights).
      Located a new Galco Miami Classic shoulder holster for a P7 M13, it’s coming soon. Galco hasn’t made these in decades.
      The M13 (with two spare mags) will become my EDC when it cools off this fall.

  11. I’m 75. Eyes are not what they used to be. Nothing wrong with optics. Haven’t put 1 on my CC weapon as yet, but it also doesn’t have a rail or other non smithing attachment point. Do have a red dot on the M25 S&W.

  12. I bought a near new “J” frame Smith Nickle plated Body Guard M49 back in 1973. I wish I would have kept it because it could be fired while still in the coat pocket because of its built in hammer shroud. Admittedly though it took a big pocket to put it in and it only held 5 shots so my missing it is more nostalgia than practicality or reality. My nickeled FN 1955 .380 fits the pocket better and it is at least good for one good pocket shot, maybe even a couple if it does not jam while inside the pocket. I am not about to ruin a good coat to find out. Drawing it out of the pocket makes for a more likely hit anyway.

    Optics? I find pistols heavy and uncomfortable to carry even without optics and making them way bigger and heavier with optics that operate on batteries is not for me personally. I have never had much luck with any battery operated devices.

    Besides the average gunfight takes place so close ( a few feet at most) that optics are a waste of money anyway. As the range increases your justification for shooting someone goes down dramatically with todays average anti-gun jury, especially when your only excuse for killing someone is blind greed to save a few pennies in your wallet. Of course the Far Right would rather be buried with a penny still in their pocket rather than have the pocket empty and go on living. The good news is that then there are more Liberals left alive to vote in the next election. The Far Right are always their own worst enemy.

      • He doesn’t own a gun. His entire comment was a dig at carrying a gun and the ‘jeopardy’ it puts you in.

        And since he was doxxed here a few years back we know he isn’t as old as he claims. If he was alive in the 70’s his big memories would be of potty training.

    • and the wind blew, and the shit flew, and dacian was gone for a day or two.

      dacian the demented dunce, you’ve never owned or shot a gun in your entire lying life, you lying liar of a drooling f***tard. Mouthbreathing idiot, do join your circle jerk.

  13. I used to practice knocking down bowling pins at 50 yards with a HK USPf .45 and just iron sights, but that was slow fire and I was only knocking them down about 50% of the time. Surely I was close enough to equate to 100% hit rate on a human size target, but again, slow fire, and it wasn’t an active shooter situation. What this kid did was nothing short of miraculous regardless of his gun sights.

  14. This is his 15 minutes of fame. Let him have it as he deserves it.

    Self defense knows no distance.

    Configuration is user choice.

    J-frame…ok. Sure, why not? How about a left and right J-frame?

  15. The 25 yard and under thing is very much mis-understood. It was for defense against handgun because handgun self-defense generally starts 20’ish – 25’ish yards and less and a hand gun is the more common type of threat when a firearm is used by a bad guy when it comes to personal self-defense. Its why hand gun training in classes is mostly limited to ranges of 20’ish yards. The 25 yard thing was never intended to apply to REQUIRED AND NECESSARY defense for self AND/OR others against rifle in a mass shooting.

    Because Dicken did it in this instance because it was REQUIRED AND NECESSARY defense for self AND/OR others against rifle in a mass shooting – it does not mean that’s its always a good thing legally or in common sense or safety wise and would be considered self-defense or defense of others by a legal authority IN ALL CASES.

    But even so, yes one should train for beyond 25 yard also. But for a hand gun use, i’m pretty sure for right now you don’t need training to hit moving targets at 300 yards while under fire and moving yourself in a populated area of people panic chaos.

    • The ethical and legal litmus test is whether someone at 40 yards represents an imminent threat to yourself or others.

      If he’s armed with a knife and has vocalized that he is coming for you, maybe not.

      If he’s armed with a rifle, certainly so.

      If he’s hurting others around him, then you would be justified regardless of what he was armed with. Even a baseball bat.

      I’m a bit different from some in that I believe that if they are specifically targeting you and you can flee, you should flee. Let’s pretend the guy with a knife was a 60 year old guy and I’m a college cross country runner.

      In a state with stand your ground laws, you could lawful use deadly physical force. IMHO, that’s not ethically justified, since I could flee with 100% safety.

      All of that goes out the window ethically and legally if the aggressor is attacking a 3rd party. Even states that require you to flee if possible, don’t require it if you are coming to the defense of others.

    • That is a moving target and is akin to choosing your personal vehicle based on the price of gas. You certainly can do that but then later it all gets cancelled out. I’ll spend just as much if not more on gas in my new car than I spent in my mid 80’s truck to do the same job.

      The idea should be to always improve. Why stop at 15, or 20, or 25? Get there and get good. Then move forward.

  16. An honest world would award that young man the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Maybe DJT will do that in his second term.

  17. I have done 3 full days of classes at the Sig Academy with a MRDS on my Glock and am still a good bit faster with irons inside of 20 ft.

    At 25 yards its not even close. I’m better with the dot.

    The simple matter is that those of us who have built up instinctive proficiency with irons (Back in the early 2000s I qualified as expert in SSP with IDPA) will take a fair amount of time to reach a point where we are better with a dot at closer-in shooting than we are with irons.

    Which. is precisely the kind of shooting we are MOST LIKELY to encounter if we are ever faced with the need for a DGU.

    • Don’t feel bad most people are like you with open iron sights on a hand gun at 25 yards.

      Heck, so far none of the experts who have tried have been able to duplicate the Dicken shots at 40 yards using standard proficiency but have been able to come close at 20 yards.

      Sure you can lob bullets in and hit a target, but what Dicken did was aimed point impact shots and that is some serious skill.

      • I’ve seen a couple of on line videos duplicating the Dicken shots at 40 yards, the one I can remember is Larry Correia, a author, gun nut and really good shot. I’m also pretty sure a few of the people who I shoot steel with could do it, as they shoot 20 round stages in under 20 seconds at 20+ yards clean. But again, really good shots who practice a lot.

  18. For the states of New York, California, New Jersey we, the firearms manufacturers, firearms and firearm parts and accessory suppliers and manufacturers (including firearms and firearms related retailers or suppliers), and firearms ammunition manufacturers – all collectively called the ‘firearms industry’ – to fully comply with the laws in letter, spirit, and intent of firearms possession laws in and for those states and in the interest of ‘public safety’ in those states, for those states state/county/city governments and every state/city/county employee that may or might handle or posses such items and the Governors and Attorney General’s, we now require before supplying or repairing such items (including warranty or contract use or shipping or sales or order fulfillment or taking orders or contract execution):

    1. Three years of all personal and official social accounts and posts, text messages, letters and inter-agency communications, from the Governor of the state, the state Attorney General, each and every state/city/county employee that may or might handle or posses such items, for each and every item.

    2. A letter of recommendation recommending possession of such items be permitted in state or city or county use. Such recommendation letters shall be for the Governor of the state, the state Attorney General, each and every state/city/county employee that may or might handle or posses such items, for each and every item. Recommendation letters will be from 3 sheriffs, 3 governors, 3 state attorney generals, and 3 non-government employee general random members of the public who own and carry firearms, in constitutional carry states.

    3. A mental health screening for the Governor of the state, the state Attorney General, each and every state/city/county employee that may or might handle or posses such items, for each and every item.

    4. Completion of in person training to be decided by the ‘firearms industry’ entity, for the Governor of the state, the state Attorney General, each and every state/city/county employee that may or might handle or posses such items, for each and every item. Such training will be paid for by the state affected and instructors will be those authorized by the the ‘firearms industry’ entity.

    5. A decision by the ‘firearms industry’ entity that the Governor of the state, the state Attorney General, each and every state/city/county employee that may handle or posses such items, for each and every item are of good ‘moral character’.

    6. That items from the ‘firearms industry’ are only present or used or carried or stored in areas that have specific sign notification that such are permitted, Such shall apply to and in all areas public and private where the Governor of the state, the state Attorney General, each and every state/city/county employee that may handle or posses such items, may or might be or has any authority personally, officially, or by law.

    7. That all law enforcement and judicial and public buildings or offices, and all other public access or public use or public property areas in the state which are designated firearms prohibition areas include those official state/city/county employees using or entering those areas and these are also prohibited from firearms possession in such areas even in times of emergency.

    • Such shall also apply to all national guard units and their personnel in the state operating under Title 32 USC.

  19. I’m questioning the range, 40/50 yards in a mall with no obstructions seems a little streched.

  20. I really appreciate what Mr. Dicken did, but he was simply doing his duty as an armed citizen, protecting his fellow man/women/it/? from terrorism…I’m sure he doesn’t want this 15 minutes of fame, he has been forced into…WE ALL NEED TO BE PREPARED TO NOT ONLY PROTECT OURSELVES AND PEOPLE WE LOVE, BUT PROTECT EVERYONE, FROM THE NEW WAVE OF TERRORISM THAT IS COMING…This terrorism may end up in your town and even your doorstep soon…We have open uncontrolled borders… We can’t keep criminals in prisons…Police are afraid or aren’t allowed to do their jobs…We are near lawlessness….Only the honest armed citizens can save us now….

  21. You can put an optic on a J-frame, too! In fact, revolvers are well-suited to optics because they have fixed barrels (rather than having to mount optics on the slide of a pistol), and because most modern revolvers come drilled and tapped for optics.

    All my modern double-action revolvers wear optics, and I made sure to choose ones that don’t require batteries so they’re as reliable as the revolvers. My DA revolvers are:

    Ruger SP101 357: Trijicon RMR (never needs batteries, “dual power” solar & tritium)
    Ruger SP101 22: Trijicon RMR (never needs batteries, “dual power” solar & tritium)
    Ruger GP100: Holosun HE509T (“solar failsafe” works even if the battery goes dead)

    Of course, my single-action revolvers don’t wear optics, because that would be absurd on a cowboy gun (plus there’s no way to mount them).

    • Those dual source/no battery Trijicons are absolutely miserable in transitional light.

  22. I took a class and we did a walk back drill.

    Those of us with optics were able to hit a C-Zone steel target at 100 yards.

  24. I would be hard pressed to do that with my EDC. First of all, it only holds seven rounds—Kahr CM9. Plus it’s a very small pistol. Yes, I carry a reload.

    But dammit it’s HOT in Florida, and I need something that conceals well under a t-shirt and shorts.

    That young man is a hell of a shooter.

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