Señor Funker Tactical’s got it goin’ on: helmet, beard, thigh holster, the lot. And man, is he quick! Nice work but . . . I’m no fan of the blink-and-you-miss-it gun disarm video genre. The videos always start with the bad guy standing just in front of our hero, gun pointed at the good guy’s head, just inches away. One, two, three, go! The disarm is as clean, fast and surgical as an A-10 airstrike. Only A-10 strikes aren’t always that clean and armed assaults are entirely unpredictable. If nothing else, both the good guy and bad guy are in motion. For another, most armed assaults are ambush attacks. While there’s nothing wrong with learning gun disarm techniques [click here for a krav maga video with some helpful advice] the overall principle is what’s important: speed, surprise and violence of action. Mindset beats tools and technique. You don’t need to be high-speed/low-drag to put that in play when your life’s on the line.
Clown shoes. Did the guy on the left even try to pull the trigger or is that not part of the game?
OODA loop applies, action beats reaction. They teach police (at least around here) not to get close enough to have their weapon grabbed, they cover the suspect and order them to the ground from a distance, not up close and personal. The local force does a drill very similar to this where the trainee has the ‘suspect’ covered and is told to shoot if the ‘suspect’ goes for his own weapon. Suspect is routinely able to ‘shoot’ the trainee before he can pull the trigger. For an idea of reaction times relative to suspect motion, here’s a pretty good website:
http://www.forcescience.org/demos.html
However, understand the demos are kind of an oranges to apples kind of thing. Even though the police reactions are slower than the perps in the demos, they are actually skewed favorably towards the police. In the real world, they will be even worse for the LEO. This is because the reaction times for perps are based on students who were unfamiliar with firearms going through directed motions- so real perps should be faster. The reaction times for the police were very simple go/no go reactions to lights or buzzers vice a complex assessment of a suspect’s motions- so real LEO reactions should be slower.
On the street, the assailant is probably not expecting a gun grab, giving the good guy the advantage of surprise. Done right, it is very possible to perform a disarm before the bad guy can react because of the concept to the OODA loop that you mentioned.
Before the bad guy can pull the trigger, he has to see the good guy’s motion, decide the meaning of the movement is to disarm, decide what to do, then actually do it. This cognitive cycle (OODA Loop) takes more time than the disarm takes, thus, action is faster than reaction.
On the street in REAL LIFE, the assailant is not too likely to walk up to you in broad daylight, present themself to you face-to-face, pull out their gun and stick it in your face. Or be alone in their enterprise.
“On the street in REAL LIFE, the assailant is not too likely to walk up to you in broad daylight, present themself to you face-to-face, pull out their gun and stick it in your face. Or be alone in their enterprise.”
Happens all the time.
Maybe in your world.
Which again is why police are taught to have the assailant go to the ground prior to getting close. Police don’t have to hurry to get the cuffs on them. The criminal on the other hand is tempted to get close so a wallet can be handed to them vice thrown towards them (which would be the smarter way to do things to aviod someone grabbing at their weapon) as well as being in a hurry to get the crime over with to get away.
Is that what your vast wealth of street experience has taught you. Say, just curious, exactly WHAT “New Mexico law enforcement agency” is it that you work for?
I’m pretty sure his finger isn’t even on the trigger (maybe to protect his trigger finger from getting busted?). If his finger had been on the trigger, it looks like if a shot got off, it would have been to the disarmer’s face (if you play it in slow-mo you can see this). Like other’s have said, he never gets off the line of attack and he pivots the gun up and then twists it, which seems to prolong the time it’s pointed at his own head.
Is the assumption here that the “victim” is not armed? This is the only justification I can see for even attempting this other than you are VERY sure that within a few seconds this guy is going to cap you unless you do something very drastic and under other conditions probably stupid and fatal.
I recall a video on TTAG recently where they discussed the fact that pressing the BG’s extended arm against his chest was effective since the muscles necessary to bring it back to pointing forward were not very strong. It would seem to me, therefore, that in a situation such as this, if you are armed but taken unawares, it would be smarter to sweep the left hand and push the assailant’s arm against their chest and keep pushing while you draw your own weapon and blow their balls off.
This has the added advantage of using the pistol you have trained with and not the BG’s gun that he may or may not have remembered to flip off the safety. The most important thing to take away from videos such as this is that it is NEVER a good idea to get within arms distance of the person you are holding the gun on.
I am NOT a trainer nor have I been in a gun fight, but I do like to attempt to apply a little logic to scenarios and techniques like this one when they are presented. YMMV.
In many years of martial arts, I learned disarming techniques and also that no one is faster than a bullet. In the dojo, you get to practice over and over. In real life, there are no do overs. If I had no other way out, sure, I would use them but if someone got the jump on me and was armed, well ….my wallet isn’t worth my life. This isn’t some Jackie Chan movie. If you want to make it out of this situation alive 100% then don’t get into it in the first place ( if it’s possible). Situational awareness is the most important thing in my opinion
+1000 on that.
In the dojo you get to get up after your mistake.
Why not just have a throw away wallet. 20 dollars in a dummy wallet and be done with it. If they aren’t interested in just taking your wallet then you know its worth it going to the next level.
Because sometimes they’ll get what they want and kill you anyway? Just for the fun of it?
In a self-defense class run by the SFPD the officer advised strongly that we keep credit cards and ID in a separate wallet and carry a literal throw-away wallet. He said that in the majority of muggings all they want is the money (and cards). If you present your wallet they are focused on that prize – toss it as far as you can in the opposite direction of your best escape route and when BGT watches it or goes for it, run like hell! Chances of BG chasing you are minimal, chances of him shooting at you, or hitting a moving target with his pistol, are much less than if you were standing still six feet in front of him.
For what it’s worth.
You are correct in that no one is faster than a bullet, but done properly, a disarm can be faster than a trigger pull. Disarm is a last ditch technique when there are no other options and you think you are going to get shot.
Agreed this is a typical disarm that’s been used for years I was instructed in this 15 years ago in the academy along with a few others, and the bad guy might not be after your wallet.
The thing you have to realize is the gun will probably fire if you try this.
I agree with this entirely. Gun disarms are the very, very last ditch tool for survival in a self defense situation. If I’m going to get shot, I’d rather get shot trying to live than get shot while not doing anything. I’m sure that’s the same reason why most TTAG’ers carry a pistol- for the fighting chance.
Now, since I’m 20 and I’m not allowed to effectively protect myself, I have a pocket knife and an inherently limited and flawed set of martial arts techniques that I really don’t trust.
And keep in mind the “Four Rules”. While you are executing this maneuver the BG’s finger will be on the trigger and YOU will be pointing his muzzle in a direction where you are very unsure of what the potential target might be, much less what’s beyond it. If he pops off a round while you “operate” any collateral damage is on you.
It’s the beard. It adds speed.
Turbulent flow, man. Turbulent flow.
I tried to grow a tactical beard once, but it’s didn’t make me any faster, all it did was give me the intense urge to chop wood and widdle ornate furniture, wrong beard, I guess.
I’m hoping you meant “whittle.” Widdling is what my dog does on the rug.
BAD DOG!
“No, no, no…you’re doing it wrong. When you threaten to steal my wallet, shoot me, and rape my wife you need to stand behind me with the gun. That’s better, but a little more to the left….”
No No No. Shannon Watts said we just put up a magical sign and that will work.
Ohhh! So that’s what a mall ninja tacticool playground looks like and how operators operating operate.
Strangely, in every firearms class (and even a couple of knife classes) I’ve taken, I was trained to “stop” a threat well before it got close enough to do a disarm.
Edit to add: And why is he wearing skinny pants?
While that sounds great in the classroom, YOU don’t get to decide what happens on the street. “Allowing” the attacker to get close may not be your choice.
Yeah, I’m aware of that. I’m also aware that the chances of me standing still with a firearm at full extension, isosceles, with my knees and elbows locked, and getting surprised by a guy with my firearm an inch from his nose are profoundly unlikely.
“And why is he wearing skinny pants?”
Low drag.
“Instructor Zero” is a total joke.
What do you expect from a European though?
I think he was some Italian SF type but nevertheless, you can’t take his videos seriously because he games the f^ck out of whatever course of fire he’s doing.
This channel says he trains 40 Special Forces around the world. I see no posting of which ones.
If he has trained the SAS, Delta, Russian FSB etc than maybe he’d be a little more believable.
But I doubt it.
Might be fast, but never use your opponent’s gun. You don’t know if its even real, if its loaded or if its jammed.
Proper procedure is to draw your own weapon after the disarm.
In reality, a handgun is likely to fire during a disarm because the perp’s finger is usually on the trigger.
Also, the first step to a disarm to move off the line of fire-see above.
The biggest problem with that scenario is that the highest number of person-on-person violent crimes take place in “gun free” cities and states. We keep saying that.
If that’s the case–and it very well could be–it is still not a good idea to use the perp’s gun. If you need to shoot and the gun is not functional you waste valuable time, and could cost you your life. It may be better as a contact weapon
Yes, follow up the disarm immediately with further violent action. I would probably not immediately oh for my firearm if I had one either. Given the proximity and that the disarm can easily turn into a struggle you want to follow through with perhaps your elbow to his throat face temple or a headbutt to the face (yeah, risky) or trip him up and put him on the ground so you can draw without being in his reach.
Uh, if I just disarmed the guy, how do I justify shooting him? Do I let him have his gun back so he can re-establish his ability to kill me and re-justify my using lethal force?
“Also, the first step to a disarm to move off the line of fire-see above.”
If you go frame by frame, somewhere in the 5 sec mark the the gun is pointed at the victim’s head while he rips the gun out of the attacker’s hand. The quality isn’t good enough to tell for sure but I don’t think the attacker even has his finger on the trigger.
This is a riduclous trick and not a technique I would want to try.
It would have been cooler if they had practiced with a Beretta 92 and then after shooting the guy the hero disassembled with gun and threw the pieces in two different directions. Saw that is a movie once.
That’s actually possible to do with practice. When I was an MP, we’d practice that, unloaded of course in a training envoiroment, but it works and some guys got pretty fast with it.
Now I doubt anyone would ever actually use that technique in RL though.
I love how in all of these videos the ‘attacker’ never has a clue about weapon retention.
There is one factor most people here seem to not take into account. Most small-time crooks don’t really want to pull the trigger and just want the money, car, item. There have been multiple videos posted here of small-time crooks robbing gas stations or small shops that get so close they could whisper sweet nothings into the cashier’s ear while robbing them. In a few videos the defenders would reach for the gun, even touch it or bat it away, and the perp would not fire. As I recall from one of the videos a clerk swatted the pistol multiple times before chasing and tackling the fleeing robber. In the case of rape they definitely would get that close. So yes, a gun at this range does happen and has been caught on tape innumerable times, having a technique to take the gun would help, even if you have no intention to use it you at least take away that leverage they have on you (even if they have no intention to use it either).
Whether the attacker in this scenario was interested in the least about retention I don’t know, but with that kind of speed it might be effective at a time when the guard isn’t so high. I would like to see a few examples of this where there isn’t a 100% success rate, unless this is a magical technique that is 100% effective.
“Most small-time crooks don’t really want to pull the trigger and just want the money, car, item” This begs the question: how do you know if he will kill you or not? I work on the assumption that if someone is pointing a gun at me, he is planning on using it. Might not be right, but it beats the alternative.
You should always use that assumption, I definitely was not saying anyone should assume they won’t try anything. What we’ve seen time and time again is most crooks want to get in your face to intimidate you and most likely won’t pull the trigger, even when the defender pushes back or fights. That doesn’t mean if they get in your face you should feel at ease because they won’t pull the trigger, just that it does happen and has been caught on camera quite a bit. If they put the gun within reach successfully using a disarmament technique could only help.
I was arguing against the common claim this type of technique is useless because anyone with a gun will not get within reach. Many or most robbers or petty thieves do create this kind of situation.
Has anyone seen the TV series “Under The Dome?” The protagonist (sort of) disarms five people this way in the first four or five episodes. What’s worse, bad guys SEE him doing this to others but for some reason still hold the gun inches from his face when it’s their turn to put the gun on him. Hilarious. And a little embarrassing – I like to think Maine people, and those from the small towns in particular, know how to hang onto their guns a little better than that. Ah, Hollyweird.
IF the bad guy is alone, IF he’s that close, and IF he’s not really paying attention, you can do this. It has to do with reaction time. There might be a shot that gets off, but it won’t be at your head.
If you’ve seen the TV show Brain Games, there’s a bar trick you can do. Put a crumpled $20 on the counter. Have the mark put their hand about 8″-10″ over the bill. Put your hand the same distance over the mark’s. You are to swoop your hand around his and grab the bill before they can grab it. They can’t move until you move. You’ll win 99% of the time, being favorable to your opponent.
We trained to do this in the Army also to fall and draw/fire at the BG. as long as the ‘prisoner’ initiates the action there was a 95% success rate (0% when the captor pulled trigger first), it’s simple bio-mechanics.
So why all the hate for this vid?
Is the point of the editorial that POTGs should sheepishly accept their fate as the Collective will (s)?
Is being faithful to one’s own survival such a sin?
Or is it a ‘haters gotta hate’ situation?
Sometimes I am confounded that the Content allowed on TTAG is more reminiscent of the unmoderated commentary found on Utube then the well considered prose it so proudly proclaims to separate it from the rest of the internet, because this example belies that claim.
“Sheepishly accept their fate”. If that is the message you got from either the article or the comments you need to work on your reading comprehension.
It worked 95% of the time in training? Any kind of stats about how much it worked in real life?
Disarm techniques are a last ditch effort. If you are in the ditch, about to eat a bullet, wouldn’t you like to have even a slim chance? The thing I dislike is he appears to be sweeping himself. Your head and body need to move away from the direction you are forcing the pistol.
There are techniques for front, side, and rear as well as distance disarms. Obviously it gets harder the farther away your attacker is.
Too bad that guy in the theater in Florida never saw this video. The guy who shot him did so at point blank range, so he would’ve been able to disarm him, just like in the video.
More “krav maga” overhype and blind fellowship….
Then we have others bashing him because he is European, Italian, or because of his Instructor call sign.
The ignorance and arrogance of people know no bounds. Particularly americans and israelis.
As a former Marine and law enforcement, the point is “do something fast and violent” to turn the tables in your favor. If you want to avoid risky situations and bullets at all costs, don’t put on the uniform. This drill is a simple simulation of the “moment of truth.” Do something besides just taking a bullet. You may never get the chance, but perps are usually untrained and unprepared for resistance. They assert power with their scary gun. Best thing to do is to act scared, then strike when they are over confident in their moment of presumed power. They have not trained for this moment, but you have. In any kidnap, capture situation, as the clock ticks away, so do your chances. Act immediately and in an unexpected way is your best option. In the end, I would rather take my chances and go for the gun. You can’t do that without training. So train.
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