“William Coleman III was talking to his cousin near 172nd and Glisan at about 2:10 a.m. on Saturday while openly carrying the gun he had purchased on Friday. Coleman said a man, about 19- to 23-years-old, approached them, asking for a cigarette. Coleman said the man then inquired about Coleman’s weapon, then pulled a pistol from his own waistband and said, ‘I like your gun. Give it to me.'” According to oregonlive.com, the pistol that caught the covetous eye of the stick-up man was a Walther P22. Open carriers will tell anyone who will listen that it’s their right. And that open carry normalizes firearms for the muggles. Concealed carriers like the fact that no one knows they’re packing unless and until they need to. Is open carry more dangerous than carrying concealed?
Any activity done with that little situational awareness is dangerous. Concealed or open doesn’t matter if someone gets the drop on you as it was gotten on Mr Coleman. Muggers pick their targets based on behavior more than anything.
And, on a second reading of the story, I might add… Oh good Lord! 2am? What the heck was he doing out at 2am and allowing ANY stranger to approach him? He might as well have had a “ROB ME” sign on his back.
I work swings and get off at midnight. Sometimes I’ll stay up until 6. Sometimes I’ll crave some greasy burger. So sometimes that’s why I’ll be out at 2am.
Its not that he was out at 2am. Its that he allowed a complete stranger to approach him that close at 2 am. Hell that close the mugger had the drop on him even if he only had a knife.
Unless you’re also in the habit of allowing complete strangers to approach you while you’re coming home from your shift, you probably don’t fit the criticism I’m leveling at this guy. Frankly, if I’m out at some insane hour like that and someone tries to approach me for just about any reason, I’m viewing them as a threat until proven otherwise.
I thought it was obvious I was addressing “2am? What the heck was he doing out at 2am “
+1
OCing isn’t some magical “get out of mugging free card”. Evil people will mug for anything, even your shoes and that $10 Casio watch you wear.
It is news because it is an extremely rare event. Just for comparison, a police officer was robbed of his gun and badge a month ago, and no one noticed it:
http://wgntv.com/2014/09/07/harvey-officer-hospitalized-after-attack-and-robbery/
I both open and conceal carry.
That story is pure Bullshit, pushed by some cc nut.
Leave people alone, some states oc is lawful. If you wanna oc, oc. If you wanna cc, then cc.
Im a big mind your own kinda guy.
If its legal, go on with your bad self.
Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion but when you decide that things didn’t happen because they conflict with your view on how things SHOULD happen you are marching into looney-tunes territory.
Something something thin blue line…
What?
Are you saying that some concealed carry people got together and made up the story, or made this happen in order to discredit open carry?
I replied to this story over at BA. That article was written to condemn open carry, but if this is the best story of why not to open carry then it is a weak argument. The guy was not open carrying. He was showing his new gun to his cousin. If he was showing his new iPhone to his cousin then he would still have been robbed and this would not make the OC vs. CC headline. I only CC but I am not going to use this story as an example why.
In what way is the story bullshit? Do you believe this event did not occur? I’m not arguing a philosophy here, honestly just asking what the bullshitty portion was.
story is true. google it, it comes up on Oregon channel 6 news. now my 2c. guys an IDIOT for showing friend his new purchase….on the street….at 2am…..in public. He asked for it. this is NOT AN OPEN CARRY STORY. I personally don’t care for open carry. Purpose of carrying is for PROTECTION and open carry takes away element of suprise. I personally don’t exercise my rights just to show off, flaunt them. Open carry nuts who do it for show, why don’t you stand on the corner and yell your views on politics, religion, etc. just to flaunt your 1st amendment rights? Because it’s silly, that’s why.
I agree somewhat. At least it’s not a typical OC story. You don’t go around carrying an empty handgun just to show off! And his SA was non-existent.
Having said that, plenty of CCers get robbed of their guns. Here is just one example I found.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/71002412.html
Looks like a good argument to carry two guns…
I agree with you Dan. Lack of situational awareness and possibly the “I’m not worried about anything because I have a gun” syndrome. The guy was an idiot and we are all probably safer now that the criminal (who already had a gun anyway) has it. Oh, and it was a .22; I’m surprised the mugger didn’t hand it back…
The key is to do both. If all else fails the concealed gun can take out someone brazen enough to try to take my open carry.
why would you say “cc nut”/ isn’t it just as bad to label someone who cc’s as it is to label someone who oc’s?
Is there any actual data about open vs concealed in terms of stolen guns, making oneself a target, etc?
There really are a couple of questions regarding open carry:
1) Is there a problem from a tactical perspective with open carry?
2) Assuming it is legal in their jurisdiction, does open carry raise awareness in a positive or negative way?
My tactical problem with concealed carry is that it severely limits your choice of clothing and weapon. Packing a full frame semi auto in a Illinois summer is impossible without succumbing to heat stroke or breaking the law.
Good thing summer only lasts for July 3rd, 4th and 5th! But seriously.
We manage to make it work in Florida. Ive carried from a Glock 42 on up to a Smith & Wesson 908. Granted, not the largest auto, but still.
Also, I can make the joke because Im originally from Chicago Heights.
pwrserge, my friend… You need to reassess your equipment.
I live in Texas, and we HAVE to CC. We do not have the luxury of being able to choose OC or CC. I carry every day, every where – even at home. That means I carry on frozen winter days with 2 feet of snow on the ground, and Hot summer days when it is over 100*F and the humidity pushes the heat index well over 120*F. I conceal carry a Springfield XDM Comp 5.25″ Doublestack wearing just shorts and a shirt.
So if you cannot conceal on your mild Illinois summer days without having a heatstroke… you definitely need to reassess your equipment and clothing choices.
That is not a small pistol you carry. What kind of holster do you use? What position? (appendix? 3:00?)
I have the 4.5″ version, awesome gun.
I’m a medium sized guy, so I can conceal my P99 year round. (5’10” and 210 lbs) One of my exes has 5’0″ and 100lbs soaking wet. She would have had a hard time concealing a LCP without printing or being uncomfortable. What I’m saying is that for large OFWGs it’s not as much of an issue. For smaller (and more female) members of the shooting community, conceal carry is a much tougher juggling act.
Except Purses…
Most of my CC is a Glock 27 with an extended grip. I carry a Glock 23 and occasionally a Glock 35. My biggest issue is the sport seats in my car. If not for that, most of my CC time would be a G23. YMMV.
Damn deep seats to make it difficult. The suspension seats in my truck make it tough sometimes and that’s all the better reason to leave the gun off body but in easy grasp while in my vehicle and back on when I exit. My draw is faster off body anyway if I have a seat belt on.
I too am from IL, I carried my full size M&P .40 Pro Series all summer in shorts and t-shirt or polo, using a N82 tactical professional IWB holster. I did finally grab up a Shield .40 with no thumb safety as a more comfortable option but I could still carry the full size if I chose and be well concealed and lightly dressed (I prefer the smaller pistol more because of weight than size). I found my Forrest City Tactical OWB was doable too but with some caveats such as a short that is linger than most I own.
I can CC a 1911 here in AZ. Granted, I’m not CCing a Desert Eagle, but I don’t think I would even want to OC one of those things.
Answer 1: Depends. You doing it in a crappy part of town at 2:10 am while hanging out on the corner with your cousin? Might be tactically unsound.
Answer 2: If I had to guess, I would say that open carrying a sidearm as you go about your daily business doesn’t ruffle that many feathers, if anyone even notices. Putting on a plate carrier, rifle and Oakelys for a trip to Dunkin Donuts probably does ruffle a lot of feathers in a not very positive way, in most places.
YEAH BUT IT’S MY RIGHT AND IF IT’S LEGAL THEN I CAN DO IT SO F-U FoRealz!!!!! YOU’RE A 2-A TRAITOR!!!!!!! I DON’T CARE IF SHEEPLE IS SCARED OF MY RIGHTS!!!!!! AGHGHGH!!!! I’M RAIZING AWARENESS AND MAKING IT NORMAL YOU COMMIE!!!!
Now if that’s the reason that an open carry guy gives on why he plates up for donuts, then what you’re dealing with is someone that has the selfishness and social graces of your typical teenager.
There are lots of things that are legal to do which are not necessarily the best things to do out in public in any given environment. It’s legal for me to fart all I want in public. Probably not a good time to do it in the middle of the pastor’s sermon (unless it is). I can eat popcorn really loud, but when I’m at a public theater I try not to, because even though it’s not against the law, I try not to bother other people when we are inhabiting the same SHARED environment.
Basically I’m trying to go about my day not being a douche to the people around me. Except when I am. Like now.
Brsides, criminals are cowarda and will ONLY pick easy victims. An openly armed man is in no way depecting an easy victim.
Theives will carefully choose targets that offer little or no chance of resistance or injury to themselves.
I do not believe that story, could be wrong but think Im not.
The kid in the story was an easy victim. Ta da!
I’m guessing he was hanging out on the corner with his cousin at 2:10 AM, feeling safe and snug that he had a gun and no way in hell was anyone gonna make him a victim or mess with him! He had the power now, yessir! No one would pick on him anymore! And girls would think he was a bad mo-fo! Oh-Yeah!
Right up until the robber stuck the heater in his face and relieved him of his property.
If I had to guess. 😉
But you know, he’s only 21, and yep, lots of people, self included, have made less than stellar decisions at 21.
“about 2:10 a.m. on Saturday while openly carrying the gun he had purchased on Friday. ”
And being an unloaded .22, completes the admonishment “don’t do stupid things in stupid places” He is lucky he only lost his weapon
Kinda feel for the kid but as my Dad me “nothing good happens after midnight”
One key factor, the time, 2am Saturday morning.
Agreed… Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
It isnt much different than having jewelry on or wearing a Starter jacket in 1992. It’s a thing of very liquid value and offers up a quick score for the opportunistic criminal.
Except that it was a gun. You know, one of the best personal defense options that you can strap to your hip. This kid was playing a dangerous game robbing an openly armed man. But really is the armed man’s fault – I don’t let anyone get close to me and I tend to give off an air of “Invade my space and my fist will invade your face.”
Doesn’t really have anything to do with the gun or the jewelry does it?
There are some guys that could walk down a bad street at night wearing five gold chains and come out the other side of the street with six. There are some guys that people would not mess with or rob whether armed or not.
This kid, was not one of those guys, and the robber knew it because he makes his living picking victims with a pretty good degree of certainty as to what level of threat they represent, armed or not. Robbers don’t want to fight or get hurt. They want to take stuff and get away unscathed and fast, which is why they pick the victims they do because they think that that particular mark is the best option.
So even though this guy was armed, was he really armed? I’m thinking no, not really in the functional sense of the term.
Armed and not aware is not armed. I agree with you there. I certainly would not have let the guy within the space of eliminating my capability of defense. At 2AM, I am even MORE aware. I don’t talk guns at 2AM with anyone. Kid let his guard down, and it could have gotten him killed.
I prefer CC. But if you are OC, you need to be even more aware of your surroundings, as you are a bigger target than the one that doesn’t appear to be carrying.
Further, there is a better than 90% chance that the robber simply observed the victim demonstrating to his friend that the firearm was not loaded – overall body language would have been secondary confirmation.
I tend to side with the cch instructor I had. Carry open may be one’s right but it is generally a dumb thing to do.
For those two young to get a concealed carry permit, there is no other choice. But be smart about it.
Besides, being out at 2:00am is pretty dumb in any city. Nothing good happens. One has to wonder if he was pulling his own version of the movie Death Wish doing what he was doing just a day after buying a nice pistol.
I can open carry in NC. But I don’t. I’m waiting for my cch to get processed.
You do understand that your CC instructor has a financial interest in promoting CC over OC, right?
Nonsense. the financial decision had already been made by the student when he decided to get a CCH, not by the teacher who expressed his own opinion on the subject during a class.
Word of mouth.
THAT cc student may have already made a decision, but the instructor is perpetuating a myth (that some particular behavior related to carry is “dumb” solely on the basis that HE thinks it is so).
To substantiate my point, that student is now repeating that opinion “what my instructor said” as an Appeal to Authority on a popular gun medium title “The Truth About Guns.” Eh hem.
Instructors should keep their mouths shut about such things, or qualify it properly by saying, “I personally don’t like OC, but a lot of folks do.” Blanket statements like “opinion as fact” help no one.
So, I’ll see your “nonsense” and raise you a “not seeing the bigger picture.”
You do realize that not everybody everywhere has the ability to easily conceal a robust firearm in a reliable caliber. If my choices are a pocket .25 Auto or open carry… I don’t think it takes a rocket surgeon to figure out the better option.
Bullshit. At least the people who open carry because they want people to see their gun are honest.
Alive trumps honest every time in my book.
Oh really? Please explain to me how you intend to conceal an M9 or 1911 in light summer clothing.
@powerserge
A large t-shirt, a good IWB or OWB holster, a good belt (mine is a sturdy Oakley), and possibly an undershirt. I add shorts or pants when going outside.
I sometimes carry a G20SF under a t-shirt. Carried my SP-01 as well. Good holster choice is a huge factor. I also don’t wear a boy’s extra medium t-shirt. I fit properly in a large and sometimes when I carry I choose to wear an XL to give just a little more flowy fabric room. But we’re talking just a normal t-shirt and often shorts on the bottom and you can conceal a full-size gun in this attire.
However, an M9 or 1911 aren’t the only robust firearms in legit calibers. My EDC is a Beretta Nano. It’s freaking tiny, chambered in 9mm like your M9 example, and robust as anything else out there. Claiming that .25 ACP is the only thing that can be concealed in summer clothes is ridiculous. Even my Taurus TCP is as small or smaller than many .25 ACPs and it’s chambered in .380, which is at least more legit of a cartridge and the pistol in holster can be slipped into any pocket. Not that it happens often, as the Nano can be totally concealed under even a short, too-snug t-shirt.
I CC a 1911 in Arizona summers. Wear pants that are a bit larger, and get an IWB holster. Larger shirt than needed. Sure your perky pectorals won’t show through, but… Look at your wardrobe as the cause of your issues. Untuck that shirt. heck there’s even lighter blazers for those that want to CC in nice tucked in shirts. It’s a better idea to cover your arms in the summer heat anyway. Plus, with a shoulder rig you can carry that Automag…
You need to get more guns or sell some and get ones that are better suited for your body and clothes. Your choices are not between a pocket .25 and an M9. You have plenty of options that are robust in a reliable caliber that are are somewhere between those two sizes.
If you are limited to those two items it is because you have decided it is so and you have elected to roll like that. Which is fine. Whatever. But I take issue that you pretend that carrying a G26 or G19 or ye ole 1911 in summer clothes is some kind of special magic and therefore you are compelled, forced even by cruel circumstances to open carry a full size or carry nothing at all worth carrying.
You do it like everyone else does. Here is the recipe:
1. Pants – 2 inches bigger than normal. Tactical shorts is okay too!
2. T-shit or wife beater, tucked in.
3. Gun belt.
4. Add IWB holster and stir.
5. Tool up.
6. Finish with the cover garment of your choice. A loud Hawaiian shirt is always a spirited summer choice.
🙂
I’m just pointing out that on a smaller person, a non mouse gun will print like crazy. I conceal a P99 using more or less that outfit, but it’s still not something I prefer as comfort is still a problem.
Yeah I understand that angle too. There are times when it is a pain the butt, cuz you got an uncomfortable hunk of metal shoved in your belt line. 🙂
I still suggest that there are “mouse guns” that are reliable and durable and shoot legit calibers, like the aforementioned Nano and lots of others in that same category. If you don’t think that’s mouse enough you can go to any number of .380’s that weigh nothing and are like 3/4″ thick and fit IWB without being noticed or slide right into a pocket. There’s some loss in caliber gusto but it’s a far cry from a dang .25 ACP.
Also, printing isn’t the issue that many people worry it is. 99.9% of the public will never notice at all. Half of the 0.1% who do will subconsciously assume it’s a cell phone or whatever. Even if you’re in a jurisdiction that penalizes accidently showing a concealed pistol (e.g. reaching for something on a high shelf and your shirt lifts up and the gun becomes visible), printing is totally fine. PLUS… I don’t think it’s rational to suggest open carry as preferential to concealed carry with some printing.
I know for a fact in Louisiana where I ocasionally carry (New Orleans) I have been harassed and eye screwed by the street types MUCH less when I open carry.
I have had to unholster my weapon 3 times while cc but not a single time while ocing
If you’ve been under threat of imminent harm three times, I would carry more than occasionally!
I’d probably move (I know, it isn’t always possible).
I’d have to guess it can work either way. As a matter of fact, I would have to guess that something like this event is pretty rare, targeting an armed person specifically to get their gun. I have to think that the vast majority of DGUs involve erstwhile “victims” whom the bad guy figured as easy marks (ie unarmed and unable to fight back effectively).
Score: Concealed Carry Thug – 1, Open Carry Citizen – Zip
In this made up story, anyway.
How, precisely, did you determine this story was made up?
Exactly.
This story illustrates, for me, a very important distinction between the average Joe walking down the street open carrying and a uniformed cop doing the same. Only an insane person (of which we have an abundance) would draw on a uniformed cop and demand his/her gun. You and I don’t pose anywhere near the same level of threat. And, as RF has pointed out many times, you don’t draw against a drawn gun pointed at you. For me, it’s concealed carry all the way. No one needs to know I’m carrying unless and until the unthinkable happens and I have to use it. The notion that we will “normalize” the image of average citizens walking around visibly armed is unrealistic at best. That’s not the nature of people. We always know why a uniformed cop is armed. There is no way for the average person to know if the ofwg (or ofbg) open carrying is a good guy or a threat. That’s the simple reality. I will now put on my hard hat so that the bashing can begin. in 3-2-1……..
+1
I don’t think it’s “bashing”, I just want to ask, seriously, how many bad guys, insane or otherwise, actually go about with an openly-holstered or slung firearm before using it to do something bad? Back in my (very) younger days, the idea was that if you saw someone carrying a gun openly (as in holstered ) then you could assume he was not a bad guy, because a bad guy would be hiding his gun (illegally) until he could surprise you with it. Even now, the first time anybody knows the bad guy is armed typically is when he (a) shoves the gun in your face or (b) starts shooting with it. Maybe someone with some statistical evidence to hand could show me wrong?
Let me put it this way. Prior to 1968, open carry was legal in California. In 1968, a demonstration by the Black Panthers led to the passage of emergency legislation banning loaded open carry–you could still carry, but your gun had to be unloaded. as a result, open carry quickly fell out of fashion. Then, in around 2005, some people started to carry open unloaded at the Starbucks, the San Diego Boardwalk, and other public places. This went over like a lead balloon, with soccer moms galore calling 911 to report a man with gun, leading to the expected overly excessive response by the police. As a result, emergency legislation was passed banning the open carrying of handguns, followed a year later by the ban on the open carry of long guns, not because there had been any problems, but because it was perceived that there MIGHT be. In places where people are normalized to guns, open carry is not an issue, but in most large Democratically controlled cities, it will lead to howls of protest from the Mom’s crowd, if it isn’t already illegal. We all know what the squeaky wheel gets….
Nice, but you didn’t address my questions at all. How many bad guys, either your garden-variety robber, rapist, whatever, or your nut case, were walking about with a holstered firearm in plain view prior to holding it in their hands to do bad things with? I understand that bad guys entering a bank with their guns in hand are in a sense “open carrying”, but that isn’t the same as going about your legitimate business with a holstered firearm in plain view. How many bad guys do the latter, then throw down and threaten or shoot someone? Not many, if any, I suspect. But I’ll be glad to see any data on the subject.
If you dress and present the right way then most people assume an open carrier is either a plainclothes or off duty officer. People, even OC friendly territory don’t think private citizen when they see a person with a gun. I have been told many times and have repeated the advice if you carry gun concealed or openly look, dress and act like an adult.
Have carried both ways for over 20 years in the nastiest, most filth crime ridden city in our country and I speak fromfirst hand experience. I have watched with my own eyes a would be attacker (usually in twos) head my way, with purpose, then see my 1911 on hip and do a 360. a blind man could have seen it. I oc in the summer, I carry a full size 1911 or xdm 45 and cc in winter when its easy to hide.
So… They did a funkadelic spin and then continued walking your way ominously? Sounds like its time to upgrade to a Desert Eagle. Then they’ll do a 540 and head on down the road.
I think being on a dark street corner at 2 AM is more dangerous, whether carrying or not, than say being at home.
Don’t know about anyone else, but this is the first actual specific story I’ve ever heard where open carry resulted in the carrier being attacked in any way. Every other complaint I’ve heard has been theoretical. I tend to side with everyone who says situational awareness and judgement were probably lacking in this case.
Back in the mid 90’s there were several Navy pier sentries and gate guards who were mugged for their weapons. At the time, they weren’t allowed to have them loaded (more concern over negligent discharges than actually needing the weapons to use against an intruder/infiltrator….)
I’ve heard of two others.
1. Dude got robbed in similar fashion not too many years ago. Guy came up on him and robbed him of his OC pistol.
2. Another guy got killed with his own gun. OC in a gas station late at night. Punk took it out of the holster (non-retention) and used it on the guy. I believe, if I remember correctly that there was more than one criminal, I mean, misguided youth involved and they got close to him. Virgina I think.
Sorry no links. Going off memory from another board some years ago but I did read the original news stories at the time.
Ok, so that makes three across the country that any of us here have heard of. I like those odds.
Have unholstered 3 times while cc, had to lift shirt probably 5 times over 20 years. Have NEVER had to touch my piece while oc’ing. You can literally see the shiftier types avoid you like the plague.
BUT……. do what you want, I know what I know, if it walks like a duck, talkes like a duck, its a duck.
I dont speak out of careful consideration, orwhat I think might happen, I say what I saw.
Besides, who stands on a corner, lets a stranger walk straight up to him and startdigging through his cloths for a weapon. If this story is true, this guy is a moron and doesnt need to be carrying a firearm.
More likely a bs story to start a heated debate.
There is a link to the original story in the article. Why do folks keep suggesting the story is fake?
Why do people keeping thinking the story must be fake? Because the behavior of the ‘victim’ was so extremely foolish that it sounds, well, impossibly stupid.
As a pivotal incident around which to discuss open carry it is analogous to saying to a woman “a learning-disabled but pretty young woman was raped in Portland last night. She was wearing a mini-skirt while standing on a corner at 2 a.m. Should you wear a mini-skirt?”
not in portland at 2 am,,on street corner ,unless a “P” and are many there doing just that.
I live in Portland and OC is legal here if you have a concealed carry permit (Oregon gun laws are a bit silly). This is the first time I’ve ever read of heard of anyone being targeted specifically because they were open carrying. You have to ask yourself something, what made this criminal target someone with a gun obviously displayed on their hip? Did he not even have a magazine in it? The story is short on pertinent facts.
I personally advocate OC for those who can. Our country has a huge problem with hoplophobia, the way to counter that is with responsible well mannered citizens OCing. Making people confront their fears is how you get them to deal with it. No one cares about the person who is CCing because they can’t see the weapon so they aren’t bothered by it. If we want to stop the vilification of firearms in our society I think that OC is the best way to go about doing it. Just remember that when you do OC you are now an ambassador.
Amen brother, if you ade legal and want to oc, then oc if you want.
I do both but i KNOW for a fact oc is acrime deterant
Regarding that “silly” law: My understanding is that that is exactly what is being proposed in Texas (OC legally if you have a CC permit–which presumably would then just be a “carry permit”). Conceptually, I actually don’t like the idea, I think carry should be “constitutional”, and I think especially any OC should be without permit. After all, anyone who thinks you might be a danger to them if you are armed plainly has enough notice to get out of your way if you are OC’ing.
In Oregon OC is completely legal, however the state granted cities and counties the right to make OC illegal. The away around it is if you have a CC permit. So in Portland and Multnomah and Washington counties OC is illegal without a permit. In the other 90% of the state it’s completely legal. Also in your car you can’t carry period without a CC permit. There are a lot of silly things in the law that make living in Portland confusing unless you have your permit.
All I can say to that is that that experiment failed miserably in California, even though by law, all of those open carriers had unloaded firearms.
“All I can say to that is that that experiment failed miserably in California,”
Using California to demonstrate how/why legislation happens as some sort of example the rest of the country should look to (such as “be cautioned by”) is a fool’s game.
A lot of us in saner states continually laugh at California’s stupidity.
In other words, just because something went down a certain way in CA, that means pretty much nothing to the rest of us. CA governance is a laughing stock in my AO, for example.
To be sure, CA has no shortage of absolutely idiotic politicians at both the State and National levels. It’s not like we are sitting around going, “ooo, ahhh, let’s be like THEM.”
Actually I would say in the long run the California experiment worked out very well. The district supreme court ruled that California needed to provide a way for it’s citizens to exercise their second amendment right. Either through OC or CC, basically California had made it too difficult to obtain a CC permit and once it got to the higher courts the court rules that California could regulate gun control but they still had to provide an avenue for people to defend themselves.
http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_25134832/gun-control-federal-court-guts-californias-concealed-carry
I live in Portland too. According to the story, the .22 was unloaded.
Also, not only is open carry without a CCW permit illegal, but possession of a loaded magazine without a CCW is also illegal.
Open carry presents dangers that are not there for conceal carry. But then again conceal carry doesn’t make people look at you as much, either, so I guess it’s a trade-off for some people.
You keep saying stuff like this as if it’s a known conclusion (born out in practice in real world attacks and shootings) that CC is somehow preferable, but it cuts both ways. I CC far, far more than I OC, but at least I can admit that CC has ‘cons’ as well. There are trade-offs either way.
There is no clear “winner” for every person in every situation. That’s the reason I of the opinion that we should simply shut up about how other people carry.
Be glad there are armed citizens in both camps.
Hannibal, I thought the subtlety of the wise-crack in your comment was excellent.
Apparently he was carrying an unloaded Walther P22. Seriously, it says it in the story. Why would you OC an unloaded handgun? And who is hanging out around 172nd and Glisan at 2 AM and expecting good things to happen?
I don’t see any mention of whether it was loaded or not in the story… not that it would really matter if somebody is already pointing a gun at you and you’re caught totally off guard.
Plus, it’s a .22 LR so it’s understandable that he couldn’t find any ammo for it haha
At the bottom of the comments, the writer adds that it was unloaded.
In Oregon you need a CHL to open carry a loaded gun.
Considering they stated this was his new gun, he must of just recently bought it, and chances are didn’t have a CHL. Meaning if he wanted to carry it, it would have to be unloaded since that is the only legal way to carry it Oregon without a CHL
Also in the comments section the author of the article wrote: Update: According to Gresham police spokesman Claudio Grandjean, the stolen gun was not loaded.
Finally, the key fact that makes this whole story make sense.
This guy wasn’t actually open-carrying a defensive gun, he was just pretending. Open-carry assumes that there’s a functional firearm in play. His gun, although real, and valuable, was nothing more than a prop. And someone called his bluff.
Yep. New post: “Is open-carrying an unloaded gun at 2 a.m. dangerous.” Well, yes, if it inspires some gun-toting opportunistic robber to draw on you in order to take your new toy. But hey, what’s to say the robber’s gun was loaded? Now, that notion amuses me.
“In Oregon you need a CHL to open carry a loaded gun.”
I understand that. I lived in Oregon for 22 years. My question is still valid. Why the hell would you OC an empty handgun? What’s the point?
If you are surrounded by anti-gun statists – absolutely.
The anti-gun statists will call the cops and tell them you are waiving a gun around and threatening people. When the cops arrive they will not ask questions or investigate the situation. They will shoot and kill you immediately because you had a gun on your person. Cops will then get a paid vacation with no penalties. Upper management of the police station will assert “procedures were followed.” Said anti-gun statists will smile with satisfaction that another person has died.
Couldn’t agree more. Well said.
Maybe this was actually just a tragic boating accident.
Also… I gotta say:
“Coleman described the man as 6-foot-1, clean cut with a small patch of facial hair on his chin and short black wavy hair. He was wearing grey sweatpants, a white t-shirt and flip-flops during the incident.”
Are we honestly so politically correct now that we cannot state the guy’s race? Whether he’s white or black or latino or asian or whatever is RELEVANT to possibly identifying the person and to not misidentifying somebody who is otherwise similar in attire and appearance but might be African American while the perp was a damn albino.
Yep, we sure are that politically correct.
Local city newspaper, TV and radio stations don’t report on the race of BOLO suspects.
Soon, they’ll stop reporting the gender.
This is a perfect Paul McCain article. If Paul were here he’d be having a field day.
I suppose the best circumstance is to open carry empty and conceal carry loaded. That way you get the best of both worlds.
Personal observance alone, I find oc a net positive deterence…. More than once it was plain to see a pair of guys trip over themselves to stop thier rapid approach to go elsewhere in a hurry. But i too am also in Southern Louisiana… maybe a regional thing where thugs have a bit more self preservative thoughts?
DAVE, sounds like you and I have haunted the same streets, so you know EXACTLY what Imtalking about.
Armchairing opinions are allways easy but being there is worth a thousand “well I thinks”
First off, this story does not constitute data. I live in an OC state, but CC most of the time anyway. I often try to imagine what things look like through the eyes of a criminal. Once I saw a guy OCing a nice shiny 1911 in SOB (stupid) and thought how easy it would be to walk up behind him and take his weapon. No SA and displaying a valuable object is a perfect way to make yourself a victim.
I have read more than a few stories over the years of cops and security guards being robbed of their openly carried guns. I can also think of advantages with both types of carry. The reason I usually prefer open carry is that with concealed carry, there is little or no deterrent factor. There is also no educational factor or celebration of the right to bear arms with concealed carry. This is the first story of a private citizen that I have heard being robbed of a gun, but I have read several stories of CCers being robbed of their guns after a struggle. Also, the victim in this TTAG article was very…foolsih. 2am on a Saturday you let someone just come up to you like that? Interesting.
The advantage of CC is that an attacker might assume you are unarmed, and let his guard down a little.
CCer’s only usually hate on OC because of social reasons. They don’t want to be a spectacle or draw attention to themselves, which I understand.
Another point, OC is free (pending purchase of firearm & holster) and any FREE American has the right to OC to defend themselves, how hard is that to understand. Obviously pretty hard even within the 2A community.
While to get a CCW permit in CA (all I know is CA, I have no idea what your freedom loving state’s fees are, but in Commiefornia it’s outrageous) you have to pay ~ $500 for the permit itself, $250 to renew every two years. Furthermore, you have to take a psych eval test that can cost ~$150. And then the qualification class, I have no idea how much those are, $150? It’s a racket! What average guy who has a kid and a regular job, like myself, can afford that?
However, CCW is now our only option in CA considering OC is outlawed for handguns, all because of those Black Panthers (who actually used 2A in accordance to exactly why it was created) and those dreadful OCers who dared exercise their right….. Blame them, right, not the politicians, cause the OCers made the laws and passed them. It’s like blaming a school shooter for anti-gun legislation, legislation that is more often than not ineffective, illogical and purely base don emotion. Hmmm.
“Is Open Carry Dangerous?”
Only to:
1. Evil Doers
2. The underpants of anti-gunners.
After read the same story over at another gun blog, appears this dude needs to rethink his ownership of ANY weapon………and carrying .22 for protection, not to smart!!
It’s always struck me as being like wearing a Rolex watch, or flashy expensive jewelry. It will attract the attention, which may not be desireable. But then again, just being on the street at 2am you’re bound to be sized up as a prospective victim by the predators.
Agreed, 2 AM and a Rolex watch add up to stupidity. It boils down to: the less other folks know about you, the safer your probably gonna be.
All I know is its silly and stupid. Bunch of beginners who want to show-off the fact that they have a gun that can cause someone to push or provoke you to see how far you might go. People watching to much T.V. Just one mans opinion.
Mark i dont know where you live but I live in an extremely violent city and murder etc. are more than common place.
If you see a man with a gun on his hip in New Orleans you better leave him alone. It says not “Im tuff” it says “I will defend myself if you attack myself or my wife and this is what Im prepared to use”
Some POS carrying a stolen Raven .25 looking for easy drug money will most certainly not risk it when old women and the other sheeple walk around unarmed, easy pickins.
Besides I cc when its easy (cool weather) just because of the bs opinions. Im not in it for the attention.
Besides, a gun on your hip in Mayberry is a joke, in New Orleans its a neccesity. If I can prevent Tommy thug from putting a gun in my face after we make eye contact by raising my arm 2 inches and showing him my piece, all ends well.
If I have to dig out my sidearm while lying on the ground from a gunshot to the gut, not so good.
No situational awareness. He should have had his hand on his grip when the man approached him at 2:10 AM, and pulled when the other guy went for his gun, which he might not have done had the OCer not been clueless.
I dont want to have to deal with all the cc laws that are in place in NC so I oc. Im not going to be convicted as a felon because a cop has his head up his ass and I could go on and on.. standing on a corner at 2am come on people really judge all oc folks on that smh…
Wait wait wait…
You don’t want to deal with NC’s firearms laws so you don’t bother with a CCW?
You do realize that CCW holders have fewer restrictions placed upon them than non-holders, right?
the thing i see is two things#1 the most ppl i see caring young ppl my opion(opions are like asshole) they want to look cool and tough,#2 if i were a criminal i would open carry in to a store i wanted to rob because with all the hoop laa with these puppies carring and its there right that the public are gonna let there guard down and thats when i would strike,i look “legal”and like a supposedly a good guy but inturn im a bad guy posing as a good guy hide it ppl
In the real world someone up to no-good would not openly carry for at least a couple of reasons:
1. It gives anyone else carrying the notice they are armed, and they lose their greatest asset: the element of surprise.
2. It will make them subject to police scrutiny on their walk/trip to the convenience store.
People going to commit a crime with a gun simply don’t carry openly unless they are on a suicide run… And if we ever got that normalized for OC, there would be plenty of risk to them clearing their holster, in the form of other OCers.
So imagine we live in an area with no firearm restrictions. Both open and concealed carry have there respective places and times when they are most appropriate. Working on my property, I’m most likely to carry open as concealed doesn’t work well. On the street at 2 am, concealed. Ccw won’t keep me from getting robbed as above. However, it does afford the surprise to go along with my speed and violence of action. This surprise is what will hopefully will buy me the time to walk away from the situation once the threat has been eliminated. But on the other hand, open carry presents some level of deterrent… Could go either way really.
CCers are like the equivalent of MDA within the gun community. Every time a rare instance an OCer is targeted they jump up and down and say “see! see!” Things to mull over while you’re attempting to validate your choice of carry.
1. How many more stories do you hear about a CCer having to draw their weapon in comparison to an OCer?
2. How many shops in riot plagued areas with a visibly armed staff remained standing while other businesses burned down around them?
3. The cases I know of of an OCer being targeted had a few common denominators in every case. The carrier was young, new to carrying, and was not paying attention to his surroundings or the situation at hand. In every case I’ve seen there was an underlying shock that someone still robbed them while OCing, which tells me they were not prepared to use that weapon in a defensive situation and was relying on its presence alone as a defense mechanism, which is no different than the CCer who never practices shooting or drawing the weapon while it is concealed. That’s a mentality and training issue, regardless of the method of carry.
I’ve cleared out gas stations in the middle of the night of unsavory characters by merely showing up with a G21 visibly on my hip. The Lil ole ladies appreciated my late night munchies. That said, if I don’t know you and you’re walking up on me, my right arm is tensed up, clothing tightened down, and hand ready to snatch up my pistol as soon as you do something I don’t believe is in my best interest. I’ve had a conversation with a felon outside of a Greyhound station and never took my hand off the revolver in my joey pouch of my hoodie while doing so. While he was a nice enough guy, I’m not stupid to the realities of the prison system, what it can do to even good people, and the ability of streetwise people to manipulate. Thinking you’re invulnerable simply because you have a gun on your hip is the kind of stupidity which will get you killed.
You seem to be generalizing and saying this of all CCers. I take it then that you never ever CC yourself?
I have considered OCing and have nothing against practical OCing (Come on, shopping with an AR-15?) as there are plenty of good reasons to do so. I usually don’t go through with it because I don’t want the attention it might draw.
I would think most people that CC also support OC.
“You seem to be generalizing and saying this of all CCers. I take it then that you never ever CC yourself?”
I read his comment to mean that subset of CC proponents that bash OC-ing…and there are quite a few (in terms of raw numbers, not percentage).
“I would think most people that CC also support OC.”
Comments here point to a different conclusion. There area LOT of OC bashers, which I personally don’t understand. If someone does not want to OC…don’t do it. How someone else carries does not determine my carry choices…
Strikes me as just more of “everyone must be like me to validate my choices” crap that infiltrates every other aspect of life.
Show me statistics, not anecdote. Then, prove the link between correlation and causation is the open vs. concealed carry, rather than other factors (location, time, situational awareness, etc.).
Hey look, my fellow ornithologists — a black swan! A black swan!
I’m not a fan of open carry without any sort of retention. While I respect OC, and do so at work, I would be too freaked out to do so without some sort of retention.
I’m still learning lessons in retention from my 20 month old son code name “El Deatho Grippo / EDG.” He’s fast, devious, and has way more energy than dad because he can sleep 12 hours a day. He’s yanked fur off of the dogs, and ripped out 3 pieces of oak quarter round molding that was nailed in under our cabinets. Gorilla Glue is now keeping the panels in place. That kid might be more tame if he was in fact raised by wolves.
I CC around EDG.
Anyways, I’m visiting WI in November for deer hunting and will CC while I’m there (outside of hunting, obviously). I’ll fight for OC and CC as long as they are accomplished in a non-threatening and responsible manner. Patrolling Wal Mart at the low ready is ridiculous.
“Patrolling Wal Mart at the low ready is ridiculous.”
Lil bit.
But only a lil. It’s is Wal-Mart and well, you know… 😉
If you carry in the open you can not let your guard down for one second. This guy did. Anyone who approaches you is a threat until otherwise determined. Ever wonder why cops always seem cold and heartless on first encounters? They are always on guard.
correct me if im wrong but dont almost all police officers open carry? you dont see people running around stealing their guns now do you? not sure i believe this story.
i think open carry is the way to go. faster and easier retrieval. people arent the only threat out there. as an outdoors man ive had my fair share of run ins with wildlife, and when youve got a pack and a vest on with a fishing pole in your hand, trying to retrieve a concealed weapon is quite a task. plus it says a lot wearin a gun honest.
“correct me if im wrong but dont almost all police officers open carry? you dont see people running around stealing their guns now do you?”
That because:
1. Most people are not insane.
2. They know that the penalty is going to be severe as it gets for the crime.
3. They know the cop will shoot them dead. Why? Because a cop in uniform is broadcasting to the world that he’s F’ing serious. So see point 1.
This guy got robbed because the robber knew this kid did not need to be taken serious. Carrying a weapon does not make you armed.
Apples and oranges really. Police officers have far more options for dealing with someone that just robbed them of their gun. The average Joe isn’t a threat once the perp starts to flee, as they can’t legally pursue or do anything but call the police. That makes it far less likely any idiot with 2 brain cells to rub together would try to rob a police officer at gunpoint.
Uniformed LEOs open carry. I don’t think they’re stupid.
My County Sheriff open carries, even when not in uniform. I don’t think he’s stupid.
Security guards open carry. I don’t think they’re stupid.
Brinks truck drivers open carry. I don’t think they’re stupid.
There are situations for each. I live in Illinois, where I only have one option, and I wish I had two.
What do those three guys have in common?
1. They are wearing uniforms.
2. They are on the job where it is required for them to open carry.
3. Regular non-gun folk recognize them as being on the job.
4. Therefore no one thinks it’s weird.
Edited after you edited. Lol.
The Sheriff does as the Sheriff wants. 🙂
Plus police have a little orange button on their radios that will bring an immediate crap storm of consequence onto the robber, where as someone who dials 911 is going to have the delay in getting the information throufh and put out over the radio
Why anyone civilian would choose to open carry when concealed carry is an option is total mystery to me. I’ve yet to hear an argument that is valid to convince me otherwise.
The only thing I can imagine is that an OC draw is faster than a CCW draw.
“I’ve yet to hear an argument that is valid to convince me otherwise.”
Wait, so an argument has to shake you from your dogmatic belief in something to be considered “valid?”
That’s not how it works.
I don’t care if you OC, CC or whatever. I’ll leave it up to you to research your own carry options and choose according to your circumstance.
Too much to ask you allow those that find OC a better fit the same courtesy? You know…without direct or sideways insults of their choices?
Si vis pacem, para bellum
If you seek peace, prepare for war.
This is an adage that goes back at least as far as Plato. It can be applied to the realm of national defense (standing armies), politics (a robust campaign fund), or personal defense (having a defensive weapon).
But you ensure peace only if your enemy sees that you are prepared, and that an attack would likely result in high casualties on his side. If your enemy cannot see that you are prepared for war, he may attack out of ignorance. Your preparations may help you to prevail, but not without bloodshed.
I fail to see anything in the article that could point to open carry being dangerous. I see a clear indication that walking down the street at 2AM with no situational awareness is dangerous, but that’s not exactly new news.
Open Carry and Concealed Carry are both valid options, but they serve completely different purposes. Concealed Carry gives you a tactical advantage when a crime is committed in your presence, Open Carry serves to discourage crimes in your presence to begin with.
http://www.notinfringed.com
I’ve been open carrying my handgun for years without issue or complaint and will continue to do so.
Who really thinks a .22 is a good idea for a fighting/defensive handgun? if he picked it up Friday had he taken it to the range to shoot it to see if it ran? As to the open carry not a fan but each to his own, that being said I would like my first two question answered.
“Who really thinks a .22 is a good idea for a fighting/defensive handgun? “
First Rule: Have a gun.
Can’t believe the caliber wars continue to occupy our thoughts in this ‘day and age.’
Given that over 99% of DGU’s don’t even involve shooting the assailant, seems like the caliber war stuff could be allowed to die a natural death.
Plenty of folks been killed by .22 and other small calibers. I’ve been to such autopsies. A darn lot of people successfully defend themselves with .22’s every single year.
Plenty of folks been killed by .22 and other small calibers. I’ve been to such autopsies. A darn lot of people successfully defend themselves with .22’s every single year.
That may be so but I still stand by my comment that a .22 is not a fighting handgun.
Mark, consided this. Open carry allows you to carry your full size weapon as opposed to say, a Bersa .380.
just saying.
Sure you could shove a rocket launcher in your pants but is it comfortable?
God forbid I actually am forced to fire I want a full size full power, well you know what Im saying
“Is open carry more dangerous than carrying concealed?”
Exponentially so.
For whom?
And…proof? Numbers? Data?
Okay let’s run through this. It’s 0200 and I’m OCing. I wouldn’t do this anyway, but whatever. Guy walks up and asks for a smoke. That’s fine, I hand him a smoke. Then he comments on my gun. That’s when I get suspicious. Then he reaches into his pocket for some unknown reason. I’m at DEFCON 2. Place hand on pistol, ready to draw. I tell him to back up. He realizes shits about to go down, and leaves. That’s how this should have happened.
How about when he says “Give me your gun”, you comply…bullets first.
I carry open on duty (LEO) and concealed off duty. This is my choice. I do think it is wise to use some type of retention holster. I see so many using cheap nylon holsters that can be ripped off their belt from behind. I also see some cheap, off brand firearms being carried. Understanding that folks have different income levels, If you carry for self defense, you should carry a proper self defense firearm.
You have to weigh out speed of draw, ability to carry a larger firearm, and potential deterrence VS the attention you draw from both LEO’s and regular citizenry and the potential for a target to be painted on you in the event of a coordinated attack.
My uneducated thoughts? Surprise is the ultimate weapon. Countless times in history from the rock knife to the modern infantryman, both in one-on-one and large scale combat, surprise trumps almost every other advantage. I’ll stick with CC.
The original question: is one more dangerous? I would have to grudgingly say yes. OC draws more potential negative encounters, and any situation that can be considered an ‘encounter’ should be avoided at all costs when carrying a weapon. We give up certain privileges, like the privilege to flip people off or start fights, when we strap on a heater. Don’t believe it? Run your big mouth about how important your rights are in prison after you get booked up for a bad shoot when you start a fight and then finish it.
“OC draws more potential negative encounters,”
Bull snot.
Sorry, but there is no body of data to support that, or the links to the studies would plastered all over these kinds of threads every single time this comes up.
You are stating you own opinion as a fact that cannot be substantiated.
What your “analysis” seems to be completely ignoring is the victim selection psychology of how most violent actors choose victims. This has been studied extensively for at least 20-30 years in great detail.
Selection comes via a process called “thin slicing.” The thin-slicing decision process ‘defaults’ to a ‘don’t attack’ answer if ANYTHING WHATSOEVER poses a danger to the attacker. Seeing a gun on a hip will at least as likely cause an attacker to wave off and select someone else.
This HAS happened…it HAS been documented where robbers LEFT A SCENE to rob somewhere else due to OC-ers present at the initially selected location (the robbers admitted this when later caught).
You will NEVER KNOW how many times this happens, however. The deselection process does not happen with an announcement, “Hey, I was going to attack you, but since you are OC-ing, I changed my mind.” It’s an internal thing.
So, there is inherent selection bias against OC deterrence in the recorded data, and even with that bias, we know it happens.
So, unless you have qualified, documented data showing that criminals attack OC-ers more often than CC-ers, please stop repeating this piece of Geezer Science.
I commend you for your outstanding use of HTML in your reply, but I’ll kindly ask you to read first.
I certainly didn’t insinuate that OC’s are attacked less, or more often then CC’s or even the disarmed civilian population. I used, as you so generously quoted, the term ‘negative encounter’. How you managed to turn ‘negative encounter’ into ‘criminal contact’ goes beyond me. My point was this: the chances of you needing your firearm, and then the additional speed and firepower that OC’ing gives you in that circumstance, doesn’t outweigh the overall risk-assessment of OCing a weapon.
Many more bad encounters can occur other than a criminal assault. LEO harassment, being asked to leave a place of business, potentially alienating friends or even family memebers, and yes, potentially increasing the chance of being a target (*AGAIN* potentially), are much more likely than being attacked in general, and completely avoidable with a simple button-up of your firearm. You lose speed of draw and larger weapons and gain the element of surprise and the PRICELESS shield of anonymity.
One is clearly better for me than the other. I work in a professional environment, have many friends and family members that are actually wonderful people that aren’t as accepting of firearms as I am, and have encountered LEO’s during OC that weren’t as pleased about civilian armament as I am. Does it make me a COWARD LIBERAL SCUM COMMIE to not OC in the face of this adversity? To simply pull over a cover garment or carry a smaller weapon IWB? Okay, great, I’m a coward. An armed coward who wants zero trouble and would rather avoid confrontation than risk it. So be it.
Simply put…YES! But I don’t think it should be illegal, especially in case of unintentional exposure of the weapon. Why give up your low-profile, tactical advantage and paint a target on your back for all to see? New cops want everyone to see their gun while off duty. Veteran cops never want their gun to be seen while off duty.
“Why give up your low-profile, tactical advantage and paint a target on your back for all to see?”
Because OC is not any that that any real data can quantify. Myths and beliefs are not “truth.”
Can I at least use logic, then? Because if a thug who has no problem killing people enters an establishment and sees you packing, what’s to stop him from just putting a bullet in the back of your skull before carrying on with his thug business? Security guards and cops may not get mugged often, but a lot of them have certainly been killed under similar circumstances.
This is probably a stupid question for all you folks who know a lot about guns but……why would someone open carry an unloaded gun? What is the purpose of such a law?
This is probably is stupid question for all you folks that know a lot about guns but….why would someone open carry an unloaded firearm? What is the purpose of such a law?
There really isn’t a reason for such a law, but there aren’t valid reasons for most of our laws surrounding firearms.
I can load my semi-automatics in less than a second. My revolvers don’t take much longer. But think about that in relation to other laws our government tries to pass (or does pass in some jurisdictions). If I can reload in a second, what good do high-capacity magazine bans really do? About five times as many people are killed every year with knives than all rifles, but we keep trying to ban Assault Weapons because they are so dangerous. The background check system drains millions of tax payer dollars every year and is so easily thwarted that it has had no noticeable effect, but they want to throw more money at it to “expand it.”
I have a blog meant for people just starting to learn about guns. If there is a topic you would like to know more about, I’ll gladly cover it.
http://www.notinfringed.com
I agree with the “just cuz it is legal doesn’t mean you should do it” voice. The kid in the story is lucky the thug didn’t just quietly walk up behind him and execute he and his friend. I’m a White guy the lived 50 years in Detroit; dad was a cop there.
From a tactical standpoint OC makes as much sense as telling the USSR the GPS co-ords of the Ballistic missile sub’s.
OC may prevent a crime in the immediate area, but it will not stop a crime in the larger theater of ops. CC casts a shadow of doubt over a much larger area. Think mine field or WW2 Okinawa cave bunkers.
Is he armed?,Him? Her? The old bag grousing at the sk8r boy?
OC may prevent a crime in the immediate area, but it will not stop a crime in the larger theater of ops.
Some anti-gun or anti-open carry people claim that if a criminal sees a gun, he will either just wait until the gun-owner leaves, or he will go elsewhere and commit his crime against someone else or another business, so there was no “real” deterrent value to openly carrying. To that I say, “Good.” Remember, my goal is not to be a victim in the first place. I carry to protect myself and my family. If a business or citizen happens to benefit from crime avoidance because I am nearby, that’s fine, but it is not my job to protect them and it’s not why I carry a gun. If they choose to go about their lives defenseless, that is a choice they made. I open carry not to prevent all attacks, I open carry to prevent all attacks on ME.
Assuming we’re talking handguns, I don’t care how you carry it. I carry concealed, because I don’t look like I’d be carrying, and I like to maintain that illusion.
If I wore 5.11 apparel, oakleys and had a cop haircut, or even just one of those faces I’d probably open carry.
Some people wouldn’t strike anyone as a deterrent no matter how well they were armed. Some people are scary enough unarmed that they’ll be the first target of a determined attacker no matter what they carry. I carry to make sure my wife doesn’t become a widow and my daughter isn’t fatherless, or to make sure they don’t die. If I carried openly, I could probably serve as a deterrent pretty well, but my purposes and my appearance are better served by concealed carry..
I carry concealed, because I don’t look like I’d be carrying, and I like to maintain that illusion.
I do not understand the advantage of appearing to be unarmed. How does that help prevent you or your family from being attacked?
It doesn’t, unless the bad guy is determined to do a bad thing right now, his own safety be damned. In which case the guy most likely to stop him is the first target. It’s always a choice between deterrence and surprise. I mostly avoid dangerous situations by avoiding dangerous situations, and maintaining situational awareness. If I have to draw, I want to control the terms under which I do so, obviously I can’t do that completely, but I can a little if I’m the only one who knows I’m packing.
It’s also the nature of my field (I work in a religious institution) where I occasionally deal with people who are a little off balance whether temporarily or permanently, (substance abuse, domestic violence, divorce) I’m generally not particularly worried about any of them, but I estimate my chances of dealing with folks who temporarily lack a sense of self-preservation as a little higher than most people’s chances of encountering such a person.
I own an OWB and IWB holster. I use them both depending on the situation. But mostly, in my environment, concealed is better.
Being at 2AM is a poor decision, especially at 172 nd and Glisian, even on a warm night
OC on a street at 2AM is a poor tactical decision.
far better to have a tragic boating accident
Here is the pest reason to conceal. If someone observes you leaving your house while carrying they know you have guns and people talk. You can targeted for a burglary because you are known to have valuables worth stealing. Once you leave your neighborhood then carrier anyway you feel comfortable within the law.
You know, I could have the same paranoia about neighbors watching me wheel a box that obviously contains a very nice television into my house- I choose to just enjoy my flatscreen instead. If you want a defense against burglary, the best combo I could recommend (aside from saying home and cleaning guns 24/7) is a LOUD security system, very sturdy doors and windows, and neighbors (preferably of the gun-owning breed) who you can encourage to guard your house! If you live in an area where you have to be paranoid about having material wealth, then you should probably find a different area…
OC is dangerous, But only dangerous to those who have not been properly trained. Police are trained in recognizing the signs of potential dis arming situations, the public is not, thus leaving you vulnerable to being disarmed.. so logic prevails..
If you feel you must open carry, get properly trained in how to not be disarmed… Just like the cops….
Pretty cut and dried..
Open carry has it pros and cons, just as Concealed carry has its. For some its a comfort issue, I know thats what it was for me. The state of my residence is a non-open carry state, so I do not have to worry about it, but I travel to Ohio frequently to visit family and Ohio is an open carry state. I can tell you, not once have I had an issue while open carrying, not from civilians, criminals or even law enforcement. I have actually been able to spread firearms knowledge and sway a few minds when it comes to carrying. I personally advocate concealed carry, but there are times when open carry is needed and or is more of an option to some. Just my opinion
Let me preface this comment with a couple of things:
1. I’ve never had a gun pointed at me in anger.
2. I’d never open carry an unloaded gun in public the way this character was. I learned from a very young age that you don’t introduce a firearm into a situation unless you are ready, willing and able to use it. It takes a special kind of stupid to OC an unloaded gun in a downtown area at 2am on a Saturday.
If some punk pulled a gun on me and demanded my OC piece? I might just give it to him hollowpoints first. First off, the likelihood that his gun is going to be some Lorcin or Jennings jam-o-matic is high. Second, have any of you found any .380 lately? It might not even be loaded.
I know that someone who is pointing a gun at me in anger is hostile. I don’t know that they have a functioning gun. If I give them my OC piece, then I’ve just handed a hostile person a gun that I know for a fact will function and is loaded with bullets that have excellent terminal ballistics. Here in the cold light of day, I like my odds of coming out shooting.
I don’t generally OC, but I am not against OCing if I feel I’m in a high-threat environment and I’d like to casually deter aggressors. If I had a gun and were filling up at a gas station late at night, I’d probably switch to OC. I did switch to OC a few weeks ago on a lonely trail that suddenly seemed like it might get hostile. (I live in a particularly OC-friendly state. Sorry, Texans.)
I don’t care if you oc, but if you do you better have a back up cc if someone gets the drop on you and takes the oc gun.
Any one with any military or police training will tell you to never give up your tactical advantage. Open carry if you want but, why announce that you have a means to defend yourself and make yourself the target when unnecessary. You may have some one get the drop on you regardless but it is almost guaranteed if you open carry.
Is that why none of the cops or soldiers I see ever OC?
Out of uniform, you mean? Because I wouldn’t rank shopping at a suburban Target or a quiet brunch at Panera anywhere near the threat level as working a beat in downtown Detroit or deployment in an Afghanistan red zone.
I don’t call it “open carry” I call it “shoot me first carry”
I notice some confusion about open carry in Oregon. Robert said it best so far:
“In Oregon OC is completely legal, however the state granted cities and counties the right to make OC illegal. The away around it is if you have a CC permit. So in Portland and Multnomah and Washington counties OC is illegal without a permit. In the other 90% of the state it’s completely legal. Also in your car you can’t carry period without a CC permit.”
I presume that last refers to Portland, because statewide it certainly isn’t true.
I haven’t pursued CC because I can’t submit myself to the concept of being treated like a criminal in order to exercise a plain constitutional right. Although if I did, being a naturist I’d be faced with the question of where a naked guy hides his sidearm.
I also prefer OC anyway, because the environments where I’m most likely to need that tool are outdoors where the potential threat is a wild animal. And while having a sidearm out visible on my hip, I have inadvertently pacified several situations where people saw the firearm and decided they could be more polite to each other, plus twice had an aggressor drop his ‘weapon’ (e.g. a 2×4), deciding he didn’t really want to get violent with me.
It wasn’t exactly an OC situation, because we were transferring our on-the-dash firearms to the trunk of the car before entering a restaurant, but the only trouble I’ve ever had while carrying a firearm in plain sight was when four cops showed up before we quite got into the restaurant — someone had freaked and dialed 911. The cops decided that someone putting firearms into a car trunk wasn’t doing anything dangerous, and we actually got into a discussion of why we had what we did, which was enjoyable. I did have an encounter with a security officer at a large mall once, but she merely checked that the retention strap on my holster was secured, after which we got coffee and discussed the merits of having a firearm, visible or not, as a “civilian” v. as a security officer.
At any rate, as far as whether open carry is dangerous, I’m going to throw in that location matters: in Sweet Home, Oregon, for example, we walked into a grocery store with sidearms in plain sight and the only comments were on our choice of attachment (the general opinion was that we were smart to have holsters that went on belts rather than clip-ons) and on carrying a revolver (me) vs, semi-auto (buddy). But in Eugene, we figured it wouldn’t be worth the hassle from the ignorant majority of the populace.
Humorous instance: at a certain hot springs, early one morning, I noted large cat tracks on the path from the parking area, so I added my Ruger to my minimal ensemble. When I returned to the parking area to get the cold drink I’d forgotten, I discovered four people arguing whether to go to the springs, given the cat tracks. When they saw my sidearm, the result was that I ended up as “escort” for a batch of naturists, where the gun belt was half my attire.
2am, OC an unloaded firearm. carrying a p22 for personal defense? this story has many iffy elements. i wouldnt be surprised if the guy sold it on the street for more than he paid for it and made this story up.
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