By Mstyslav Chernov and Lori Hinnant, AP
The table tennis coach, the chaplain’s wife, the dentist and the firebrand nationalist have little in common except a desire to defend their hometown and a sometimes halting effort to speak Ukrainian instead of Russian.
The situation in Kharkiv, just 40 kilometers (25 miles) from some of the tens of thousands of Russian troops massed at the border of Ukraine, feels particularly perilous. Ukraine’s second-largest city is one of its industrial centers and includes two factories that restore old Soviet-era tanks or build new ones.
It’s also a city of fractures: between Ukrainian speakers and those who stick with the Russian that dominated until recently; between those who enthusiastically volunteer to resist a Russian offensive and those who just want to live their lives. Which side wins out in Kharkiv could well determine the fate of Ukraine.
If Russia invades, some of Kharkiv’s 1 million plus people say they stand ready to abandon their civilian lives and wage a guerrilla campaign against one of the world’s greatest military powers. They expect many Ukrainians will do the same.
“This city has to be protected,” said Viktoria Balesina, who teaches table tennis to teenagers and dyes her cropped hair deep purple at the crown. “We need to do something, not to panic and fall on our knees. We do not want this.”
Balesina recalls being pressured to attend pro-Russia rallies during the protest movement that swept Ukraine after Russia attacked in 2014 — a year that utterly changed her life. A lifelong Russian speaker born and raised in Kharkiv, she switched to Ukrainian. Then she joined a group of a dozen or so women who meet weekly in an office building for community defense instruction.
Now her Ukrainian is near-fluent, though she still periodically grasps at words, and she can reload a sub-machine gun almost comfortably.
This wasn’t the life she expected at age 55, but she’s accepted it as necessary. Plenty of people in her social circle sympathize with Russia, but they’re not what drives her today.
“I am going to protect the city not for those people but for the women I’m training with,” she said.
Among her group is Svetlana Putilina, whose husband is a Muslim chaplain in the Ukrainian military. With grim determination and not a hint of panic, the 50-year-old has orchestrated emergency plans for her family and for her unit: Who will take the children to safety outside the city? Who will accompany elderly parents and grandparents to one of the hundreds of mapped bomb shelters? How will the resistance women deploy?
“If it is possible and our government gives out weapons, we will take them and defend our city,” said the mother of three and grandmother of three more. If not, she at least has one of her husband’s service weapons at home, and she now knows how to use it.
Elsewhere in Kharkiv, Dr. Oleksandr Dikalo dragged two creaky exam chairs into a labyrinthine basement and refilled yellow jerrycans with fresh water. The public dental clinic he runs is on the ground floor of a 16-story apartment building, and the warren of underground rooms is listed as an emergency shelter for the hundreds of residents.
Dikalo knows how to handle weapons as well, from his days as a soldier in the Soviet Army when he was stationed in East Germany. His wife works as a doctor at Kharkiv’s emergency hospital and regularly tends to Ukrainian soldiers wounded at the front.
The conflict that began in Ukraine’s Donbas region subsided into low-level trench warfare after agreements brokered by France and Germany. Most of the estimated 14,000 dead were killed in 2014 and 2015, but every month brings new casualties.
“If, God forbid, something happens, we must stand and protect our city. We must stand hand to hand against the aggressor,” Dikalo said. At 60 he’s too old to join the civil defense units forming across the country, but he’s ready to act to keep Kharkiv from falling.
A guerrilla war fought by dentists, coaches and housewives defending a hometown of a thousand basement shelters would be a nightmare for Russian military planners, according to both analysts and U.S. intelligence officials.
“The Russians want to destroy Ukraine’s combat forces. They don’t want to be in a position where they have to occupy ground, where they have to deal with civilians, where they have to deal with an insurgency,” said James Sherr, an analyst of Russian military strategy who testified last week before a British parliamentary committee.
There are growing calls in Washington for the CIA and the Pentagon to support a potential Ukrainian insurgency. While Russia’s forces are larger and more powerful than Ukraine’s, an insurgency supported by U.S.-funded arms and training could deter a full-scale invasion.
Polling of ordinary Ukrainians reviewed by intelligence agencies has strongly indicated there would be an active resistance in the event of an invasion, according to two people familiar with the matter who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive information. A spokesperson for the U.S. Director of National Intelligence declined to comment.
Russia denies having plans for an offensive, but it demands promises from NATO to keep Ukraine out of the alliance, halt the deployment of NATO weapons near Russian borders and to roll back NATO forces from Eastern Europe. NATO and the U.S. call those demands impossible.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said recently that any escalation could hinge on Kharkiv. The city is also the base for Yevheniy Murayev, identified by British intelligence as the person Russia was considering installing as president.
“Kharkiv has over 1 million citizens,” Zelenskyy told The Washington Post. “It’s not going to be just an occupation; it’s going to be the beginning of a large-scale war.”
That is precisely what Anton Dotsenko fears. At 18, he was front and center in the wave of protests that brought down the pro-Russia government in 2014. Now he’s a 24-year-old tech worker, and he’s had enough upheaval.
“When people are calm and prosperous, and everything is fine, they don’t dance very well. But when everything’s bad, that’s when they party hard, like it’s the last time,” Dotsenko said during a smoke break outside a pulsing Kharkiv nightclub. “This is a stupid war, and I think this could all be resolved diplomatically. The last thing I would like to do is give my life, to give my valuable life, for something pointless.”
The young people dancing inside would say the same, he declared in Russian: “If the war starts, everyone will run away.”
This is what one nationalist youth group hopes to prevent. They meet weekly in an abandoned construction site, masked and clad in black as they practice maneuvers. The men who join that group or the government-run units have already shown themselves to be up for the challenge to come, said one of the trainers, who identified himself by the nom de guerre Pulsar.
“Kharkiv is my home and as a native the most important city for me to protect. Kharkiv is also a front-line city, which is economically and strategically important,” he said, adding that many people in the city are “ready to protect their own until the end,” as are many Ukrainians.
The same sentiment rings out among Ukrainians in the capital, Kyiv, and in the far west, in Lviv.
“Both our generation and our children are ready to defend themselves. This will not be an easy war,” said Maryna Tseluiko, a 40-year-old baker who signed up as a reservist with her 18-year-old daughter in Kyiv. “Ukrainians have a rich tradition of guerrilla warfare. We don’t want to fight Russians. It’s the Russians who are fighting us.”
No one can convincingly argue to me why we should instinctively side against Russia in this conflict much less get involved at all. Russia is no longer a communist country and we have much bigger fish to fry.
Russia is now fascist. But I somewhat agree with you. We need to stop trying to police the world.
At least until we get leadership restored to DC.
Russia is about as fascist as the current US regime so I wouldn’t pull that thread too hard.
Did everyone notice that this article came from the Associated Press (AP)? It is just a propaganda piece from the mainstream media to promote the globalist agenda.
It was an interesting and informative article. Also, I feel for the Ukrainian people.
Still, I’m far more concerned about the globalist oligarchs and tyrants, and the harm they are causing my country. What is going on in Ukraine takes a back seat.
Again. No argument.
It may be time to pull that thread.
training with wooden guns?…(as seen on the network news)…explosives, explosives and even more explosives is how you fight an occupation….
Appeasement of nutjobs doesn’t work well.
Ahhh it’s only Poland, dont worry. Ring a bell?
H.P. That is the same domino theory Harry Truman and his fellow party mate Lyndon Birddog Johnson used to get us involved in two wars that we had no business being in.
Our reserve Marine Company was briefed on problems we would face in Vietnam as early as 1961. I asked the I&I why we wanted to fight a war for folks who didn’t want to fight in the first place. He told me I didn’t understand the problem. Time proved that I understood the problem a whole lot better than he did.
Old Lefty He who stands for nothing gets nothing.
Europe is considered the center of the world. The Ukraine’s freedom is dependent on being backed by NATO (Europe and the US). The Ukrainians don’t want to fight a war with Russia but it’s being thrust upon them. The Russians want the Ukraine to be a bulwark from a perceived invasion by NATO kike that would ever happen. The Russians are paranoid and Putin is looking to reestablish Russia as a “world power.”
I suggest that you get your head out of the sand. This is not a question of VietNam or Afghanistan.
At least a mafiocracy.
See also Xe Obiden?
Russia not commie? HAR
They are totalitarian. Communism under Russia and China(and all others become that way), just as Nazism becomes that way. For the rank and file, it is the same. Call it what you like, but it is all about total control, you either support those in power, or you suffer.
“you either support those in power, or you suffer.”
So, just like here.
The Russian Empire under the czars wasn’t communist either, but it planted the notion that all the surrounding countries should be dominated and ruled from St. Petersburg/Moscow. All communism did was enforce it with enhanced brutality. The communist party is gone but the imperialism remains. How dare those uppity Ukrainians refuse to abandon their unique nationality and become good loyal Russians? What’s one little 4 million genocide in the grand scheme? I can’t think of “bigger fish” than the prospect of the revival of an aggressive territory-grabbing tyranny.
That sucks for them but it’s none of our business
Funny how things become our business, when the isolationists pull their heads out of their asses. For example, energy prices.
I don’t think our kids dying to protect Ukraine will affect our energy prices one way or another. And we are not even allied with Ukraine, even the arcane considerations of 50 years ago don’t apply, we should butt out, other than selling them effective arms with which to defend *themselves*. Afghans were real dedicated to our kids dying to defend them, their kids not so much. How stupid are we? Pretty stupid. I was fighting in Vietnam in 1972, and I had no question that our “allies” would fold up like a cheap suit the moment we pulled out, while our government was attempting to pretend they would not. Just like Afghanistan, 50 years later. Pretty stupid.
Ukraine has a Russia Problem…The USA has a democRat Problem.
China is running honest to god concentration camps and propping up North Korea, arguably the most evil government in existence, on top of buying out and subverting western media companies to their agenda. I would gladly ally with Russia to stop China.
Vhyrus then you would be a fool. For your edification China and Russia are allies.
The smart move would be to make sure they weren’t allies.
“For your edification China and Russia are allies.”
It’s in reality an alliance of convenience, but they will stand together against us.
We are their common enemy…
Dude, and just how do you do that? Sometimes you just have to accept what is rather than what you want it to be.
“how do you do that”
The first step would be to make it a goal. The second step would be to start working toward that goal. The realities of today don’t have to be the realities of tomorrow. We should be playing the long game, like China.
I have zero confidence in our dear leaders even making that a goal. If they knew what they were doing, they never would have pushed the two together in the first place.
Russia wants Ukraine to rejoin because of their shared history and culture.
The Ukrainians look at their shared history as an abusive relationship they’ve managed to leave and don’t want to return.
Post USSR, Ukraine gave up the nuclear weapons that were stationed in their country in exchange for guarantees they would not be invaded by Russia. I hope they kept a few just in case.
Putin and Russia still can’t get over the collapse of the Soviet Union and pine for the good old days. Those who lived there in the 80s probably have fond memories of the bare shop shelves and ever lengthening queues as the economy collapsed.
Shared history and culture? Of what starvation and genocide?
Russia wants Ukraine to rejoin because of oil, gas, mineral and agricultural resources.
Russia and china have a long common border..even their train gauges don’t match deliberately…and both have been invaded with some regularity…they have been allies at times…but it was Russia who approached us about ok’ing a preemptive nuclear strike on china…their alliance is a shaky one…something Nixon knew…
“Russia wants Ukraine to rejoin because of their shared history and culture.”
No, no, no.
It’s all about Putin’s outrage about the collapse of the USSR, and he has vowed to restore it. And that means he will not accept Ukraine being a part of NATO.
Ukraine isn’t the only one in danger. Moldavia is also in a similar tight spot, ripe for invasion…
Putin wanted a friendly regime…but it’s not what he got…now he ain’t happy
Thank you for that.
Who is old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis? What we have in Ukraine is the same situation, in reverse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 45 minute presentation by Prof John Mearsheimer tells you everything you need to know about the situation in Ukraine. It ain’t what the media tells you. It ain’t what the White House tells you. It’s certainly not what congress tells you.
The Koch brothers alone spent $14 billion to destabilize Ukraine, and to install their own fascist puppet government. The Bidens have been capitalizing on it all along.
I’m ashamed of my country for it’s part in Ukraine for the past ~25 years.
except Ukraine gave up their nukes long ago..bet they’re regretting that about now…
Even a few tactical devices purchased from North Korea / Pakistan would get everyone’s attention.
“Russia is no longer a communist country”
that’s why the ones behind all this want them destroyed.
Vhyrus WHAT? Russia is out to reestablish the old USSR boundaries with satellite countries on it’s borders.
The Russians have been paranoid about NATO for eons. Putin is a thug, former KGB Col if I recall correctly. And you say that we should stay out of it? One has to wonder what you would say if it were Germany or another country which was at risk.
God save us!
oddly, Germany doesn’t seem very concerned…lots of politics in play here…
Germany needs gas.
Idiot f__cktards shut down nuclear electric stations and switched to Russian gas. I’d believe a leftist conspiracy in that.
Stasi Merkel probably had influence in that decision.
When the Soviet Union broke up, we made a promise to Ukraine. There were worries about nuclear proliferation and ex-Soviet nukes winding up in the hands of bad guys. They signed the Lisbon Protocol in 1991. In return for Ukraine turning over their nukes, the US and Russia agreed to defend them. Putin betrayed them and invaded the Crimea Peninsula in 2014, and Obama basically went along with it. Now that Putin seems to be going for the whole enchilada, ignoring our obligations would show that the US is completely untrustworthy by our allies. The Afghanistan pull out already showed Biden as weak and incompetent. Leaving Ukraine on their own would be an invitation for China to take Taiwan since the US won’t lift a finger to protect the people it promised to shield.
looks like 7.62×39… i would expect 5.45
ahh, there’s more shoulder…
Russia will never take its eyes off Ukraine as long as Ukraine and NATO can be mentioned in the same breath. Russia views NATO as an anti-Russian alliance, which it is, and Russia is fearful of a US ally on its border. Take Ukrainian NATO membership off the table and temperatures would cool.
How did we feel about the Soviet Union having an armed ally 90 miles away? We almost went to war over it.
If not for Soviet Russian aggressiveness there would have been no need for NATO. Russia is like a common criminal offended by the notion of his potential victim being armed for defense.
Yep.
What is amazing is that there IS a Ukrainia. After Stalin’s Holodomor starving and murdering millions of natives then reseeding the area with Russian. The evil SOB apparently failed. As in the Baltic countries.
Maybe Putin will try harder this time.
What will be the death toll if those mechanized brigades move in on four fronts with the standard tactics of rolling strikes by aircraft, artillery, armor then infantry? Easily justified if even on .22LR comes your way.
“If not for Soviet Russian aggressiveness there would have been no need for NATO.”
I agree totally. But that doesn’t negate what I wrote.
The Soviet is dead. Russia had no demonstrable aggresiveness toward eastern Europe, until we stirred the shite up. If you can spare 45 minutes, you should watch this presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
large and powerful countries like to control their spheres of influence…Putin’s is shrinking as democratic states creep up to his borders…the threat is more political than military….
those guys had nukes…remember?….
Maybe. Have you seen the full list of Russian demands? They want Western Europe to roll back all military elements to the USSR borders. Yes, Russia has a nasty paranoia about being invaded, but the fact of the matter is that there isn’t a country is all of Western Europe that is prepared or has the will to invade Russia, much less the military needed to do so. The Baltic states do not want to come under Russian hegemony (except the dictator state Belarus that depends on Russian good will to remain in power), nor do the Poles or the Germans. Only the French and the Brits have nuclear weapons (besides us), but no will to use them, and thus the threat of intermediate range missiles being poised on the Russian border is not exactly an offensive threat.
Russia is not a democratic state. It is a kleptocracy/dictatorship run by Putin for the benefit of himself and his allies. He can tolerate no challenge to his political might, and will rule as President until he doesn’t want to do so any more or dies of old age, a very very wealthy man. He has made innumerable moves to regain Russian supremacy. he sponsors state run hacking rings, he intrudes upon our political process through programs of disinformation, and typically lies about his motives. I find it hard to believe that his claims of fear of being invaded are in the least bit true, but rather are simply an opportunistic ploy in the face of an American President viewed as weak.
If this does not remind us (that still remember) of Chamberlain and Hitler, it should.
Exactly.
“They don’t want to be in a position where they have to occupy ground, where they have to deal with civilians, where they have to deal with an insurgency,”
They kinda learned that lesson the hard way when they occupied Afghanistan many years ago.
Easily forgotten when it’s not in the majority of the populations living memory. U.S. did the same in the RVN, and promptly forgot in intervening decades, then did it once again in Afghanistan.
Personally, I think we should push hard for Ukrainian NATO member status if only to chap Puto’s ass while flipping him off to his face. And for heaven’s sake, quit announcing you won’t get involved in the fcking fight. Sanctions no matter how severe, are not the super compelling reason to back away you Donbas’es think they are. Pushing nuclear and/or conventional forces towards the potential front, and visibly spoiling for the fight, are.
US did it once again in Afghanistan, immediately after Russia had demonstrated beyond any doubt what a stupid idea it was. You cannot get dumber than that.
Yeah, we pretty much ‘doubled down on failure’ in Afghanistan. And, notwithstanding the neocon ‘ Bushistas’ who were pushing “Global War on Terror” nonsense (how do you go to war with an IDEA????), we did a little better than the Rooshians (because we weren’t QUITE as corrupt and incompetent) and . . . still failed, miserably.
We have to get over this idea that every country can just be like the U.S., if we give them a chance (and a few billion dollars). Some countries don’t want to; some countries aren’t yet ready to.
We need to stop trying to remake the world. Remaking our own country into a place that loves freedom would be a nice place to start.
Its not just the U.S. or Russia. Every country in history that has been involved militarily in Afghanistan has eventually failed and had to withdraw its military. It was called the “Graveyard of Empires” for a reason.
Poland has a large border here…what, if anything are we doing about that?
dems have always been about changing the world…repubs, not so much…[unless there’s a profit in it]…..
We just got out of a 20 year war in Afghanistan.
Our President botched the withdrawal
Biden appears to be an old, weak man.
The U.S. is not spoiling for a fight.
There is no use to pretend that we are willing to directly fight.
Let our arms companies sell the Ukrainians weapons.
We should stay out of the fighting
Docuracoat
He who is not willing to fight and even die for freedom’s sake will lose that freedom and deserves to.
For *whose* freedom? Sending America’s young men to Ukraine has nothing to do with our freedom and very little to do with whatever degree of freedom may or may not exist in Ukraine.
If we’re going to fight or even die for something, let’s do it for our own freedom here at home, where it’s in mortal danger.
Ukraine .gov should make a show of handing out ak’s and rpg’s to the man/woman in the streets. Flood their country with real weapons of war.
Let the Russians see that and remember A-Stan.
Somebody needs to make a show of handing out antitank weapons as well, and if anybody knows how to use them, a few of our tanks would be a nice exhibit as well.
Trump was the first to send them actual weapons…prior to that it was care packages…
“Somebody needs to make a show of handing out antitank weapons as well,…”
Britain made a delivery of those weapons a few days ago :
“UK sends 2,000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine amid fears of Russian invasion”
https://www.wionews.com/world/uk-sends-2000-anti-tank-weapons-to-ukraine-amid-fears-of-russian-invasion-446457
Here’s another weapon system being delivered :
“Poland Will Send Shoulder-Fired Anti-Aircraft Missiles To Ukraine
The Polish military aid package for Ukraine is set to include portable anti-aircraft missiles, drones, and ammunition.”
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44107/poland-says-it-will-send-ukraine-shoulder-fired-anti-aircraft-missiles
Ukraine will have some very sharp teeth to attack Russia if they are invaded. It will make for a very interesting insurgency.
If Russia invades Ukraine, there will be *lots* of videos being shot that will leak out if Russia tries to squash an insurgency by retaliating against the civilians, that video will outrage the rest of the free world…
I agree with your sentiment just not on the particulars. Videos of Ukrainians holding up a bunch of white to gray looking clay would probably do more. Things that go bang but don’t shoot bullets stand a better chance against spetsnaz, or even regular infantry. One balm maker, and some teenagers delivering packages, can do more damage then a bunch of housewives w/ AK’s. Buy some third nation passports and/or visas to Russia and things get real interesting. Yeah, not our fight but go Ukraine. How does one say “Wolverines” in Ukrainian?
The Chechins brought the front home. Putin does not want that so will crank up internal security to “11”, making Russia feel much more like 1937.
One defense which could at least delay or disrupt the Russian advance would be to place boxes of Vodka, and any other alcoholic beverages, on the most probable invasion paths.
Strike at the cultural weakness of the Russians.
Bottles of methanol?
That could be considered poisonous and toxic substances which is a violation of the chemical weapons treaties.
Regular drinkable ethanol will be more than adequate.
Don’t we have a good supply of confiscated Fentanyl? Or have we sold it all already?
That is actually quite funny!
toss in a few babes and the war’s over!….
All this war propaganda. The corporate media is pimping hot conflict with Putin. Don’t they know the Russians still have nukes? God help us
most of the hysteria seems centered in Washington….why?…Europe seems to be taking a much calmer approach to this….
The US needs to secure our own borders before we worry about any other countries getting invaded.
But just as a reminder to POTG that much of steel cased ammo is made in Russia and area around. I expect sanctions and local demand will almost completely dry up this source if conflict happens. So if you need 7.62 x 39 or 54r or 5.45 now is time to stock up. And steel case is typically the cheapest 9mm and .223 as well. I’m not suggesting hysterically hoarding at current prices, but get what you need
As I recall Obiden banned imports a year ago. I don’t buy/use the crap so not my area of interest.
Stocking/saving/planning is NOT hoarding. The idiots that use “hoarding” are the same types with their “gun violence” BS
He banned it effective AFTER the current import licenses expire. Which I don’t think they have as of yet.
Thank you for that. The progressives say we can’t secure our own borders, but they’re willing to see our sons and daughters die to secure Ukraine’s borders.
more like we WON’T secure our borders…that’s all by design…the russkies want some elbow room but instead we’re squeezing them into a box…
Agree that we choose not to secure our border. Putin wants “elbow room” on someone else’s sovereign territory. If he gets Ukraine, he will pressure the Baltic States, Slovakia, and eventually the Czech Republic. It worked for Hitler, and no reason to suspect it won’t work again, at least until all Slavic countries are under the Russian umbrella.
“But just as a reminder to POTG that much of steel cased ammo is made in Russia and area around. I expect sanctions and local demand will almost completely dry up this source if conflict happens.”
Palmetto State Armory in South Carolina has bought a steel-case case ammunition assembly line from an eastern European country and is now setting it up over here to produce Com-Bloc ammo in the USA :
“PSA Tooling Up For Domestic Steel-Cased Ammo Production”
“7.62×39, 5.45 and 54R will be manufactured in the US under our soviet arms brand. This project is a very large construction and manufacturing project that has been going on for about a year. Our current timeline has the first steel cases rounds coming off of the line in 2023. Of course any project this large can see delays. We should be able to make up for most of the missing Russian imports.”
https://gundigest.com/article/psa-tooling-up-for-domestic-steel-cased-ammo-production
Meh…there’s a helluva lot of ethnic Russians who live in Ukraine. Do a deep dive on Ukraine. This 30 year “independent” country is an anomaly in world history.Part of different empires & whatnot. The doctor who took my echo cardiogram was a Ukrainian who came here in 1992. Now a citizen. He was quite chatty and volunteered information on the Ar’s & gunz he owned. Just think they gave up their vast nuclear arsenal on “promises”. Duh… this ain’t a war we should fight(Mebbe they can get gunz from a bazaar in Afghanistan?)🙄
The “promise” was from ole President Billybob Clinton. Turn over your nucs and the US will protect you. The Ukrainians, perhaps, today know enough not to believe a damn lying demtard.
Perhaps an NRA project to provide donated firearms to the Ukrainians, would be better used and remembered that the 1940 project to arm the Brits.
There were different parts to that promise. The Ukes made promises to Moscow, and Moscow made promises to Ukraine. Ukraine has reneged on their part of the bargain, in regards to Russia. Three parties to that agreement, only Russia kept their part of the bargain.
No, they kinda haven’t. Remember Crimea???
I’m not a huge fan of Putin, and there isn’t much justification for his invasion of Crimea. Ukraine also played games with the deal (mostly in response to Crimea, but not entirely), and we had our hairy hand in it, too.
The issue is, what do we do NOW?
Russia needed Crimea (for its naval bases) more than it cared about international approbation. And it got away with it. A significant part of the USSR’s defense industries were located in Ukraine. So Putin took Donbas. And got away with it. When asked to explain all of those Russian soldiers with no insignia or names, Putin first said that they were Ukrainian nationals. When that lie was proved, he said that they were soldiers “on vacation” in the Donbas. Funny how soldiers on leave got to take their arms, artillery, ammo, tanks and APCs etc etc while on “vacation.” So yes, Russia already has invaded Ukraine for its own purposes that have nothing to do with its alleged fear of invasion from the West, but instead had to do with recapturing strategic arms factories and, had the invasion gone according to plan, reinstalling a pro-Moscow government in Kiev.
no it’s not our war…but nothing wrong with feeding them lots of weapons…they’ve done it to us in the past…
Imagine a country where its citizens will fight and defend it, unlike Afghanistan and Iraq where they will throw down their U.S. supplied weapons and run or surrender!!
Careful how you disparage Afghanistan, they fought for many years to drive out the Russians, then fought again for 20 years to drive out *US*!! The problem is invaders doing them so many favors. We were invaders (and driven out) in Vietnam, too. We need to stop believing the reasons we are told why we *need* to go fight, kill and die in foreign lands, normally (historically) it has been a lie.
no exit policy..some places just aren’t that interested in “democracy”…[the current buzzword]….they just want the foreigners to leave…
We should all thank Hillary Clinton and President Obama for organizing a coup to overthrow Ukraine’s democratically elected President back in 2014 because they favored neutrality rather than an alliance with NATO.
The video of Victoria Nuland, then Undersecretary of State for European Affairs, passing out cookies at the Euromaden was priceless. The intercepted phone call in which Ms Nuland dictated who would be the new Prime Minister was profoundly incriminating.
This FUBAR is reminiscent of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US deployed Jupiter Missiles to Italy and Turkey to target Moscow, then became irate when the Soviets returned the favor by basing missiles in Cuba. This crisis also has a potential to go nuclear.
I missed all that, Elmer, somehow, but I don’t doubt it a bit.
hilliary and obamy created lots of mischief after that “Tunisian Spring”…Libya still hasn’t recovered, they tried to destabilize Egypt and are the main reason we got involved in Syria with all their phony “red lines”…they tried to do the same thing in Ukraine…a country that just wanted to be left alone…..
I consider the vast death and misery in Syria, Libya, very much blood on Hillary’s hands. Anyone slightly familiar with the region knew things were not going to be an “Arab Spring” instead a fall to violent anarchy.
This is history repeating itself, or at least ryhmning.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/01/the-real-cuban-missile-crisis/309190/
Not our problem.
When we’ve paid our bills we can spend money on other people’s shit and when we’ve secured our borders we can help others secure theirs.
Let it go nuclear. Start with DC so when I go it’ll be with a big smile on my face.
My suspicion is this is all DNC-driven distraction so no one pays attention to what Biden has done to our nation. If it comes to blows, the FBI will go into hyper-drive hunting down anyone who doesn’t vote for demon-rats.
some element of truth there…but the country isn’t behind this effort no matter how hard the media try to sell it…poor Ukraine is like the rag doll a bunch of kids are fighting for…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
If you want to understand the crisis, watch the first 45 minutes of that presentation. There are no ‘innocents’, but Russia is the least guilty.
If you are part of the ‘my country, right or wrong’ crowd, you’ll feel that those 45 minutes were wasted, so don’t bother.
Anything on Youtube is a (censored) waste, a liberal wasteland.
The Russians aren’t that bad. They’re Christian and anti-woke! Why aren’t we helping Putin?
Yeah, so let’s start a nuclear war, dacian. Brilliant logic.
If we were helping Putin, who would we be starting a nuclear war with? That doesn’t appear to make any sense.
“The Russians aren’t that bad.”
I dunno, you brainless t***, you hated on them pretty hard when you were accusing them of engineering Trump’s electoral win.
Get your effin’ stories straight, come back, and try again . . . you uneducated nitwit.
You know you’ve reached rock bottom when someone as intellectually deficient as Lamp calls you out for being ‘uneducated’.
So, nameless, brainless troll, what’s your degree in?????
Like dacian the stupid, you CLAIM a status to which you are manifestly not entitled. Go visit the cable, lackwit.
that’s why the left hates them..but it is basically a thug state…knocking off people with regularity…
As always the press exploits the ignorance of their fan base on the left. None of these “analysis” mentions the slaughter of Russian-heritage citizens in Crimea over the past decade. They push the comic book bersion of “good guys vs Evil Russia” story. Ukraine butchered its own citizens who showed support of Russia in the dispute of the Black Sea naval base. They are not the innocent “good guys” our press pretends.
This is a family matter and we have NO business getting involved.
Slaughter?
Can you provide any references that are not from Russia?
Suppression yes. Russian language libraries were deliberately ruined.
But I have not heard of slaughter. You mean like death camps?
not directly…but killing Russians is never a bad thing…maybe we can put a bounty out on them for a change?
Putin is a mad man and if you think that he will stop after he conquers the Ukraine you know nothing about Putin. Putin wants to take back all of the Baltic states and he has his eye on Romania as well. The State next door, Moldavia was once part of Romania and Putin could easily launch an invasion from Moldavia into Romania. To make matters worse Romania wants Moldavia back and has been giving citizenship to Moldavia’s Romanian population which has angered and panicked Putin.
Entangling alliances were responsible for the catastrophe of WWI and fast forward to today the Baltic States and also Romania/Bulgaria are being protected by Nato. This will not stop Putin once he takes over the Ukraine. and every one in Western and Eastern Europe either knows it or should know it. Playing games with Putin reminds me of Neville Chamberlin playing games with Hitler and we all know how well that went.
If the West was smart they would warn Putin that if he invades Ukraine they will give sanctuary to Ukrainian forces so they can conduct gruella warfare against him until he goes bankrupt as happened when Russia invaded Afghanistan. The Vietnam war also comes to mind as they bankrupted the U.S. to convince them to get the hell out of their country.
As usual Europe has always been a powder keg just looking for someone to lite the fuse for the next big war and Putin is playing with his matches.
P.S. I am surprised Germany has not shown more support for Ukraine considering how many ethnic Germans live there although a lot of them have left over the last couple of decades for Germany.
Thank you, dacian the stupid, for subjecting us to your normal word salad of meaningless drivel. We were all just waiting for you to grace us with the benefits of your ‘education’ that you brag about.
Now go back to sleep. After you visit the cable.
You are too stupid to insult.
Polish people I speak to have a significant confidence they will be Russified and NATO will not defend them.
I suspect they are wrong about NATO, as Poland is a member. If Russia invades I expect each state which is a member to send 10-20 unpopular soldiers except the U.S., sending a million and paying the salaries of the others.
You know it’s time to examine your life when someone as unremarkable as Lamp calls you out for being ‘too stupid to insult’.
Lamp has achieved more in his life than all of you and your leftist-socialist brethren have ever dreamed of. Your goal along with dacian the dunderhead is to make America a European socialist country, bankrupt and all.
“Too stupid to insult” would accurately describe you, nameless, brainless troll.
Go visit the cable.
You are too stupid to insult.
As Usual Walter the Beverley Hillbilly flunked World Economics. Germany and France are two of the richest countries in Europe and they give their people what Capitalvania will not which is Social Programs that guarantee cradle to grave security as well as free higher education and worker retraining.
Try again Walter Clampett your a laugh a minute.
Poor dacian the stupid,
Whatsamatter, loser, Uncle Sugar not giving you was much free shit as you are “entitled” to? Try getting a friggin’ job, loser – ah, except nobody would be stupid enough to hire a stupid, uneducated loser like you, would they??
maybe they don’t want their gas shutoff?….it’s cold out there baby!
does Putin really want to lose that pipeline?….we’ll see…
And France with their functioning nuclear reactors is wondering why the rest of Europe put themselves into a situation of reliance on Russian resources.
The decision to shut down the reactors in Germany and Austria in favor of coal and gas, in my opinion, defines the word “leftard”.
dacian knows all of this because dacian is Putin’s lapdog, lying under the table, eagerly scarfing down any scraps his master offers.
But Germany sent 5000 helmets.
NATO will have more credibility when they can amass a comparable force on such short notice
I say we match Germany, and send 5000 Trojans.
The 2nd Amendment is uniquely American but the right to self defense is universally human.
FAKE NEWS
not trying to sound like a history buff—-but wasn’t it a family of 3 cousins in three different countries that WWI?—–earlier than that, why was it fine when Britain wanted to make the world British?—–how come when ‘The other side’ wanted to accumulate the oil resources they were the devils, but England did it all was well———it is the same shell (oil) game all over again–
These things would not be happening if Trump had won the election. Since Biden took over, everything has been reverted backward by several decades. This is the result along with many other things.
But he didn’t, because he is a failure and a loser. Trump was a spineless worm. Palling around with dictators isn’t strength, it’s the epitome of weakness.
Prndll I have to vehemently disagree. Trump knew how to stand up to a bully. Since Sleepy Joe took office, the world for all of us has gone to “rat shit”.
VerendusAudeo Trump did NOT pal around with dictators. Seems you have been watching, listening and reading too much lefty propaganda.
Trump DID win the election, the fact that it was then stolen by huge swaths of our own government and given to a doddering old fool that nobody wanted is the REAL problem we face now.
Why is everyone ignoring the 800lb gorilla? Same as when Russia invaded Crimea?
Why is Russia/Ukraine a US or NATO problem?
We are talking about one UN member state invading another UN member state. That is a matter for the UN to resolve, politically, or militarily. The UN will not touch any issue that is not supported by dictators, communists, but the US should be pounding the table demanding complete censure by the General Assembly. Despite the fact that of the Security Council, the US is the only nation likely to bring the matter, the US should be publicly shaming the General Assembly and the Security Council.
Ukraine is not a member of NATO. That’s part of what this is about.
“Ukraine is not a member of NATO. That’s part of what this is about.’
And it shouldn’t be. The issue is not just defending a non-NATO nation. The issue is that the all the nations involved are UN members. An invasion of any member state by another is a matter for the UN.
All these mutual defense pacts are efforts to get around the UN, or an admission the UN is impotent at enforcing its own responsibilities. The US mission in S. Korea is not an American initiative, but the remnant of the UN mission to defend a member state. The Norks don’t have a legitimate status to somehow negotiate a peace treaty with the US. The treaty, or the end of the Korean War, is the purview of the UN (which is quite happy to be absolved of any responsibility).
BTW, there are thirty members of NATO. One should look at the list and ask which ones they would not actually defend against nuclear power Russia, or the entire “Russian Federation”. Why didn’t NATO, or the US, defend Georgia and Chechnya against Russian invasion?
If it is the moral responsibility of the US to police the world IAW US/American values, what is the moral justification for not “saving” every nation that suffers foreign oppression?
The US and NATO survived decades of Ukraine being dominated by Russia. What does the US and NATO have at stake now? Is there a credible threat that once Russia absorbs Ukraine again, that will somehow launch Russia onto full scale invasions of NATO members Russia once considered their rightful territory?
This is a UN problem. Dump Ukraine on the UN.
Sam, The United Nations’ most unsuccessful operations have been their “peace keeping efforts” if you can ever call them that. the UN could not resolve a fight in a school yard between children. The UN is a toothless functionless entity that the US should leave and kick them out of NYC
The 800 pound gorilla is the fact that the US and allies engineered the coup which put the neo-nazi fascist government in power that is currently running Ukraine. You read about conspiracy theories all the time – this one is real. US and NATO is backing Russia into a corner, for no good reason. We will NOT benefit from forcing Russia to ally with China.
I don’t know if Russia is considering using nukes, but Russia has all but promised that they will wreck Ukraine before Ukraine becomes a NATO member. Mass destruction, with Kiev in ruins. THAT is what the US is recklessly pushing for.
“Russia has all but promised that they will wreck Ukraine before Ukraine becomes a NATO member.”
All the more reason the issue is a UN matter. China and Russia recently voted to prevent the Ukraine situation be discussed at the Security Council. Now it is time to address the General Assemply, and the NATO countries press the point in front of the whole world assembly.
Why are we not hearing the US even mention the General Assembly? Why are we not pressing the UN to use its member-funded programs to isolate Russia? Why is the US waiting until there is death and destruction in Ukraine, before unleashing crippling economic sanctions on Russia? If the US is such an imperialistic, antagonistic, belligerent empire, why is the US not using its vast, unequaled economic power to reduce Russia to an agrarian nation once again?
Russia publicly issued a credible threat of use of deadly force. That alone should be sufficient breach of international law to trigger economic punishment.
Couldn’t we, real quick, move the UN to Kiev? Maybe they would get interested if the cannons were shooting at THEM! And it would be a great excuse to get them out of our country.
The statement: “No More Brother Wars” applies to ALL sides of the conflict. Let’s sit out other countries wars. Special interests duped and maneuvered us into two World Wars and numerous regional conflicts. Enough is enough.
Thayer, that is just wonderful. Why don’t you write Comrade Putin a letter and tell him that.
If you are not willing to fight and maybe die for freedom’s sake, you will lose your freedom and deserve to.
I’d rather die on me feet than live on my knees; how about you?
Again…for whose freedom? What does a conflict between Russia and Ukraine have to do with my freedom, or yours? Please tell.
Ing Whose freedom do you think? Ours, the Ukrainians, the rest of free Europe. the Russians are extremely paranoid and will do anything to assuage their paranoia. If you think that Russia is not trying to set up the former Soviet Union’s hegemony, I have a desert land in Fl to sell, really cheap.
Walter, we have spent 50+ years and wealth beyond comprehension proving beyond doubt that we alone cannot win wars in foreign countries which do not want us there, to the point of killing us at every opportunity. After Ukraine has held off the Russian hordes for, say, a year without one American being killed there, then we can discuss becoming directly involved. Until then, of COURSE they would like us to bring our people and our money to their country, the top crooks will get rich and we will do most of the dying, everybody is happy except the wailing American mothers, again. Enough.
“Special interests duped and maneuvered us into two World Wars”
Want to explain how that happened in WWII?
Please please don’t say “the Jews”.
I just ate.
A load of bullcrap.
Here are the facts:
1) Russia has zero interest in “invading Ukraine”. Ukraine is a failed state, with crap economy and a ton of people, mostly in western Ukraine, who hate Russia.
2) The real issue is that the Ukraine government was taken over by right-wing nationalists in 2014 urged on by the US CIA and neocons in an attempt to seize the Russian naval base in Crimea. The Crimeans and Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians, not wanting to be ruled by a regime that was devoted to “Ukrainizing” them by eliminating the Russian language and essentially treating them as second-class citizens, revolted. Many of the Ukrainian nationalists in the new regime were either or were supported by organizations which extol the Ukrainian collaborationists in WWIII – i.e., they are essentially neo-Nazis.
3) Russia, of course, was not going to allow Ukraine to violate the treaty allowing Russia to have that naval base. So they disarmed the Ukrainian troops in Crimea – without anyone being killed – and send advisers and arms to eastern Ukraine to defend the Russian-speaking citizens there.
4) In 2015, Russia, along with France and Germany, persuaded Ukraine to sign the Minsk Package of Measures, which was subsequently enshrined as a UNSC Resolution, making it binding on all parties. Russia has nothing to do under that agreement, despite what you hear about “Russia being required to comply.” Russia is not even mentioned in the agreement. What is required is Ukraine must negotiate directly with the breakaway republics, and alter Ukraine’s constitution to federalize the country, granting some degree of autonomy to the breakaway republics. Ukraine has persistently refused to do this for seven years.
5) In spring, 2021, Ukraine moved half its army to the contact line, evidently intending a new offensive against the republics. Russia moved a large number of forces to the border and threatened to “destroy Ukraine” if they attacked. Ukraine backed off.
6) In fall, 2021, the CIA and the neocons began a campaign of representing Russian troop movements on its own territory as a “threat” against Ukraine. They also amped up talk about bringing Ukraine into NATO, despite the fact that Ukraine isn’t compliant with NATO admission rules, since the country has an active internal disturbance still going on. Since then, the US and some NATO countries have been shipping weapons to Ukraine in an evident attempt to persuade Ukraine to launch a new offensive.
7) Over the last few years, NATO has been conducting military exercises in Ukraine. This year, beginning in February, 64,000 NATO troops and hundreds of ships and aircraft will be involved. This is apparently an attempt to complicate Russia’s operational plan for their response should Ukraine launch a new offensive on eastern Ukraine. It’s also possible that the intent is to enable NATO to invoke Chapter 5 of the NATO Charter should Ukraine launch an offensive and some NATO forces either accidentally or deliberately get caught up in the Russian response. Ukraine is not compliant with Chapter 6 rules enabling an invocation of Chapter 5, but it is likely that the US and NATO would try to ignore that fact.
8) Russia has an overwhelming military advantage over the US and NATO forces in Europe. If either the US or NATO intervenes in a Russian response to a Ukraine offensive on the eastern republics with the forces the US and NATO have available to them, Russia will defeat them handily. The only option the US and NATO would have them is to go nuclear. Currently Russia has an advantage in strategic nuclear weapons delivery systems that neither the US nor NATO can defend against. Not to mention that WWIII is not a good idea.
9) In terms of a “Ukrainian insurgency”, Russia has been there and done that, in Afghanistan, Chechnya and Syria. They aren’t going to do that again if they can avoid it. They’re not the stupid US – they don’t do “nation-building”. If they are forced to go in to Ukraine, they will destroy the Ukrainian military, organize local governments in the areas they have seized much like the eastern republics, organize the militias to protect them like the eastern republics have, backed by Russian military support (as demonstrated in Kazakhstan recently) – then go home. No occupation, no insurgency. Any counter-insurgency they do have to do will be both brutal and effective. I wouldn’t want to be an insurgent in Ukraine in that situation.
Bottom line: The conflict in Ukraine is the brain-dead conception of and entirely the fault of the US and NATO desire to over-reach in Europe. Russia was promised in the 1990’s that NATO would not move “one inch” beyond the re-unified Germany. Every President from Clinton on has violated that promise. Russia has simply had enough and is now demanding that it stop, with permanently legally bind guarantees of that. If Russia doesn’t get those agreements, it will deploy its military forces in such a manner as to threaten the US and the EU in the exact same degree that US strategic weapons in Europe threaten Russia.
You don’t want that, because as I say Russia has an advantage currently in strategic nuclear weapons. And you don’t want an expensive Cold War 2.0 that sucks your taxpayer money into the military-industrial complex.
Unfortunately, it looks like the CIA and the neocons are going to get their war, possibly starting this month. Ukrainian President Zelensky has been pushing back slightly against the “crisis hysteria” the US has whipped up over the last couple months. But the US has brought back former President Poroshenko with the evident intent of forcing Zelensky out of office in a coup similar to the one that started this whole affair in 2014. This shows the US, despite what the media tells you, is still intent on getting a war started in Ukraine.
And there’s nothing you or anyone else can do about that. But if one starts, Russia will finish it.
Hack, you are so full of donkey dust. As to your #1) Russia has every desire to make the Ukraine a vassal state. the Russians are extremely paranoid of NATO even though, NATO is virtually a paper tiger without the US.
To you Lefties, anyone to the right of Joe Stalin is a “right wing extremist.” The current Ukrainian government is doing what it can to root out corruption. Can you say that about your Russian Comrades?
As to the Crimea being a naval base that treaty was extended until, 2042. Nice try. What justification do you have not for Russia seizing the Crimea?
As to your number 4, France etc had no business interfering with internal Ukrainian affairs. If you don’t believe that this was done to placate Russia, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Real cheap.
If you think that Russia massing troops along the border with the Ukraine is not a threat to the Ukraine then you are deluded with Russian propaganda. They have repeatedly said they are their to “protect (sic) their citizens”. Pure Unadulterated BULL SHIT! These so called “Russian citizens” are citizens of the Ukraine.
In light of Russian aggression towards the Ukraine which it wants as a vassal state as a bulwark against toothless NATO, the Ukraine was absolutely justified in having joint exercises with the US and NATO See: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/ukraine-holds-military-drills-with-us-forces-nato-allies-2021-09-20/
Your number 8 is only partly correct. It seems that the plan was/is to contain any Russian incursion/invasions into Eastern Europe until the might of the US could be brought to bear. In this say and age of airlift transport that is a matter of weeks.
Here is the REAL BOTTOM LINE. Russia has every intention of making the Ukraine a vassal under the Russian thumb. Get a grip on reality.
And, speaking of toothless, JoeBiden will take about 10 years to decide what to do about it, and then be unable to express his decision to anyone else.
Thanks for clarifying the Russian part BS line фриггин дебил comrade.
хорошего дня в вашем мире заставить поверить.
Spot on. Unfortunately, most people are going to buy into the mainstream media account of events in Ukraine. It’s perfectly alright for the US and NATO to take aggressive actions, but when Russia defends itself, they are evil.
By the way, if you want to find out what is really going on with regard to Ukraine, follow Alexander Mercouris’ Youtube channel. He does a daily 30-60 minute video analyzing foreign policy issues, and I find him to be usually correct.
You might also follow the Web site, http://www.antiwar.com, and also the Moon of Alabama blog at https://www.moonofalabama.org/ The latter, especially, is very perceptive in analyzing both domestic and foreign affairs, despite being located in Germany.
Well if the Ukrainian’s dont get some outside help they better train to tie white rags on a stick.
Oh, come now, possum. I love to poke fun at Ukrainians (my god-daughters are half Ukie), but you should never compare Ukies with the French. That’s just too low!
Seems like a better set of weapons to hand out would be a bunch night capable 500-1000 yard scoped rifles. That would make for a pretty miserable occupying force.
The U.S. has flown about 180 tons of weapons into Ukraine in the last several days. Today it was announced Biden is sending about 2,000 troops from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, to Poland and Germany this week and shifting roughly 1,000 Germany-based soldiers to Romania. Biden said he will not put American troops in Ukraine to fight a Russian incursion, although the United States is supplying Ukraine with weapons to defend itself. Additionally, The U.S. State Department has cleared Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to send U.S.-made missiles and other weapons to Ukraine (the missile are mainly Javelin anti-tank missiles and Stingers). Poland is also delivering weapons to Ukraine.
Russia has about 120,000 troops on the Ukraine border with more being sent.
Our troops are probably not sent to fight in Ukraine. Their numbers and composition are not anywhere near what’s needed for that. Most likely they’re going to guard the Europe from leaks of Ukrainan armed groups that will try to escape. Refugees, too.
The weapons we’re sending are mostly there to provoke Ukraine into a military adventure.
Anybody seen Russian troops massing at the Mexican border?
Secure our southern border. It’s a bleeding artery.
@Mark N
“If he gets Ukraine, he will pressure the Baltic States, Slovakia, and eventually the Czech Republic.”
While running around with our hair on fire over Ukraine, Russian “pressure” (including troops on the border) against actual NATO nations should be a serious concern.
Regarding Ukraine, we (US govt) have a sympathetic view to protecting an independent nation (sympathy, not obligation). When it comes to NATO members, we have the worst of choices…mutual defense pact. Are “we” really willing to go to war over former Soviet conquests? Is Germany?, Britain? Italy? Turkey? Denmark? Belgium.
The unstated purpose of NATO members other than the US is the hope that bluster backed up by the US would deter the Soviets from increasing their empire. That when it came to it, the US would provide the real defense, not member nations. NATO is not really a mutual defense, as it is more a bunch of frightened mice, hiding under an umbrella, hoping the bad guys won’t see them.
Russians have already fought the remnant of Nazi collaborators waging a guerilla war in Ukraine once. It’s not going to be a problem for them to do it again.
Also, I have to observe that Russia is already in control of parts of Ukraine. How is it going with the “resistance”? Oh, that’s right… The population is pleased about being rescued from the grip of a failed state.
A wife of a Muslim chaplain may have other ideas, after all he’s probably a wanted terrorist and a war criminal. But all in all, nobody is going to wage any kind of resistance.
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