Unless you’ve been under a rock in the gun world, you’ve probably heard of the Greenwood Park Mall shooting, and the hero who ended the mass shoooting early with a 40+ yard shot. If you haven’t, you can get up to speed with some of our past articles here.
Tom Gresham at Gun Talk Radio recently had an interview with Eli Dicken’s attorney, Guy Relford. Relford is also a firearms instructor, so he presumably has a better idea of how the mechanics of shooting work than most other lawyers. In the interview, we learned that we don’t know as much as we think we do, that some facts were wrong, and that some big names in gun control are probably going to pay up.
We Don’t Have The Dicken Drill Quite Right (Yet)
One thing we learned from the interview is that the distance Eli Dicken took the first shot from (40+ yards) is correct. His attorney says he’s since been in the mall and stepped the distance off himself. So, that’s a pretty solid fact we can rely on now that the fog of initial reporting has lifted and solid facts are trickling out.
But, the facts aren’t all out yet. Relford tells us that he’s agreed with the police department to not release facts that haven’t already been released until investigators are finished up. So, we know now that there are more facts coming out in the coming weeks.
We also know that the facts will be interesting. Relford couldn’t tell Gresham what all he isn’t telling us yet, but he did say that people practicing “The Dicken’s Drill” on YouTube are going to have to add “a whole bunch of different elements” to make a drill that matches Eli’s experience that day.
But, then again, we might already have a second version of the Dicken’s Drill, even if it’s not that exciting. The fact that Dicken had no formal training has been confirmed, but that doesn’t mean he had no training of any kind at all. Beyond training with his grandfather, we’re told that Eli did lots and lots and lots of dry fire training.
So, if you want to be able to do what Dicken did that day, be sure to do lots and lots and lots of dry fire yourself, and otherwise train regularly.
Things People Got Wrong After The Incident
One fact that almost everybody got wrong at first was that Dicken lacked a permit and was legally carrying concealed under Indiana’s relatively new Constitutional Carry law. This was a fact that the police initially got wrong and told the media, and then everybody spread around and commented on. The police bungled this because an initial records check showed no permit, but a more thorough check showed it.
So, that’s only a harmless clerical error.
The other reason that story spread was that police (correctly) said he doesn’t have any formal training. In many states, training of some kind is required to obtain the permit, so people unfamiliar with Indiana’s laws on that matter (this included me) probably assumed that meant no permit, too. But, Indiana only requires background checks for a permit.
— Guy Relford (@guyrelford) July 21, 2022
Another common mistake people made was to assume that carrying in the mall in Indiana was illegal. Even in states where that would be illegal, it’s only a petty misdemeanor in most cases, so fussing that a tiny “crime” was committed makes no sense when you consider the lives that were saved. But, as we know, anti-gunners don’t have a lot of sense.
But, in Indiana, it’s not a crime to carry past a “code of conduct.” It’s not even a tiny crime like spittin’ on the sidewalk unless you are asked by the property’s owner or his representatives to leave and you refuse to leave.
When asked about all this, Relford said, “There will be repercussions.” People who spread that lie about Dicken on TV and on social media (including Shannon Watts) engaged in “defamation per se”, so they’re probably going to need to pay up once those lawsuits go out.
Some Other Interesting Things We Learned From The Program
Later in the radio show, we heard that two other well-known defensive shooters reached out to see how Eli Dicken was doing. Jack Wilson, who shot an attacker at a church in White Settlement, Texas and Stephen Willeford, who saved many lives at another church in Sutherland Springs, Texas have both independently reached out to Relford to check on his wellbeing and offer help.
These men both know what it’s like after a shooting. Relford said everyone he’s talked to who has been in a justified shooting still struggles after the killing. They get through it, ultimately, because they know that what they did, while difficult, did save innocent lives.
We’re also learning that there’s a big difference in preparing for self-defense versus preparing for defending others. The “bell curve” for self defense distances starts, obviously, with you, so most self-defense shootings are close up. But, defending other people starts off at some distance from you, so the distances for defending others are obviously going to be greater on average. Long shots, like 40+ yards, aren’t as far out in the “long tail” when defending other people.
Perhaps more importantly, we need to keep in mind that defensive shooting ≠ self defense. It equals all defensive shooting.
So, as I’ve pointed out before, we need to stop thinking of defensive handgun training as being at “CCW distances”. Training at greater ranges not only gives us options for more situations, but also helps improve our fundamentals at all distances.
Finally, they did discuss equipment. While equipment is no substitute for solid shooting skills, the .380 pocket pistols with 2.7″ barrels and limited real estate for your hands that have become popular with many people carrying concealed aren’t going to perform at 40+ yards the way a larger or full-sized pistol will. Reflex sights also give people a great advantage both at close distances and especially at longer ranges.
So, this shooting may end up being the impetus for change among many concealed carriers.
I am not planning on a 150 to 120 foot shootout. Not with a handgun at any rate. I’d also likely get crucified in ILLannoy for doing that. Kid needs to make $ from his heroism…
No money, like any hero, just live his life in peace.
My dad was a Louisiana State Trooper. Louisiana was very lenient about what off-duty Troopers could carry, but they had to qualify with it every year. So when my dad went to qualify, he had to bring his carry revolver(LA allowed a 4″ .357 in stainless or nickel, so he took a S&W 686 and his 4″ nickel Python) and his assortment of off-duty pistols(various DA/SA S&W autos, J frame, 2″ Model 66, Walther PPK, and his department issued High Standard .22 Mag derringer).
Louisiana required Troopers to shoot the same course, regardless of the pistol, so he had to qualify at 50 yards with the J frame and PPK. It can be done.
I shoot my Kahr CM9 and CW380 at 40 yards all the time. I can hit a man sized target with those at that distance no problem.
I have seen first hand a man get 8 head shots at 40 yards with a Turkish clone of a Walther PPK in .380. And that was carefully aimed fire with a reload (two partial magazines) in the middle. It can absolutely be done.
So much is being said about that 40-yard shot. If you read the news reports carefully, you will find out that Eli moved toward the killer as he continued to fire. There may have been only one shot fired from 40 yards. The news reports stated how Eli motioned for people to exit the area behind him as he advanced on the killer. We also know that it was reported that two of Eli’s shots missed hitting the killer. One of those misses could have been from that 40-yard distance and only made the killer aware that he was being fired upon. I know that I am kind of reading between the lines somewhat, but at least I’m getting some of the reported facts right.
1 im done buying pistols that arent optics ready
2 im done shooting targets at 7 and 9 yards
Dare I say, “based”?
Good call.
I THINK I COULD SHOOT MY LITTLE PINKIE OFF , SO AFTER , 15 FEET THAT COKE CAN SAFE .
WHEW 40 YARDS + , I THINK ONE HECK OF A SHOT . UNDER PRESURE , STRESS .
OTHER PEOPLE IN MALL , OR BACK GROUND . HE SAVED LIVES …
Do you know how the caps LOCK key operates? Kind of similar to a safety. ON/Off, Off/ON. VERY easy thing.
Do you emember joeR?
He used to live in Oklahoma, I think he moved to north Texas
man sized target at 40yds with a slingshot.
I thought dry fire was the reason we have televisions.
Set the channel on C-SPAN, all the motivation one needs.
🤣🤣🤣 I’m so glad I’m not the only one that does that! The C-SPAN thing is a good idea, lol.
Actually, televisions are the reason we have dry fire. Ha.
The book of Elvis, Chapter 45, verse 7 😉
LOL, dry firing on the tv is what put a hole through mine.
It wasn’t as dry as it should have been.
Thank goodness I lived way out in the sticks, however that’s probably what contributed to my carelessness. No kids, no neighbors, a negligent discharge was no big deal.
One of my dad’s work buddies did that too. 357 slug blew the back of the tv tube out, big mess in the living room for sure. Likely his britches too, but that part of the story remained private.
Underwear lives matter…
Well, “dry fire” is the reason many new TVs are purchased……
And here I thought it was because of crappy skateboards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrVZmefeo94
Like any self defense situation there are a variety of factors that will play a role. Your willingness to defend others and possibly kill another human being, your responsibility for where those bullets wind up, your skill level and ability to hit a human target at varying distances, the type of gun you have and its ability to reach out at whatever distance you are shooting and effectively do the job. There may be others as well.
Since most of us have never had to shoot at another human being the one question that will only be answered completely when you are put in that situation despite all your training, skill, etc, or lack thereof will be, “Can I really do it”. I have read articles in which soldiers in combat have intentionally missed their targets because they cannot bring themselves to kill anyone including someone trying to kill them. So, when it happens you will find out what you can or cannot do.
It is all in your MIND-SET, SIR. You only concentrate on the job that needs done, not any consequences, THEN PROCEED !!
Let’s not get too carried away. Yes, there was an initial shot (confirmed) at 40 yards…we still do not know anything else. Eli may have improved his position and moved up. I’ve also heard (unconfirmed) that he used environmental elements to brace his subsequent shots.
As poor in accuracy as the statistics we have may be…it is what we have. One outlier incident doesn’t mean that we should stop practicing to what most makes sense for the scenarios we are most likely to encounter. Most of us are not going to engaging bad actors past 25-ish ft (8-10 yards).
If you do engage in practice out to longer distances, there are a lot more elements to think about. If you have an optic setup to 40 yards, your close distance will be off and vice versa and you’ll need to compensate for a potentially lower percentage scenario.
Not sure that makes a lot of sense for most…but whatever decision you make, weigh the benefits of any changes versus what you most likely will encounter.
Have a great one!
Ohhh “environmental elements”. WOW
Why don’t you share with the whole class exactly how much a 9mm drops from 25 yards to 40 yards, hmmm?
Get serious.
The first person to land a hit wins the gunfight.
I won’t concealed carry a gun that doesn’t drill a USPSA steel silhouette at 50 yards consistently.
“… the .380 pocket pistols with 2.7″ barrels and limited real estate for your hands that have become popular with many people carrying concealed aren’t going to perform at 40+ yards the way a larger or full-sized pistol will.
Thank you. The smallest firearm I’ll carry is a compact, like a Glock 19/23/32. Anything smaller than that is insufficient, IMHO, for serious defense work. When weather allows, I carry a full size revolver or pistol under a jacket.
We know he didn’t run or hide. He took the fight to the killer.
We know he had a gun and was proficient.
We know he brought enough gun.
We know he didn’t run away like COPS, I mean COWARDS do at school shootings.
“Training at greater ranges not only gives us options for more situations, but also helps improve our fundamentals at all distances.”
No. Train to attack effectively first.
There is plenty of room for .380 pocket pistols. That size handgun and a few other long guns are my choice in my home. YMMV
I live in L.A. Co. and can’t get a carry permit, so I am limited to the house(or if I need it, to a pocket), so they do the job I need them to do. It will be nice, when the court battles are over, to be able to carry at my waist, whatever handgun I wish, but for now………..
We know he didn’t run or hide. He took the fight to the killer.
We know he had a gun and was proficient.
We know he brought enough gun.
We know he didn’t run away like COPS, I mean COWARDS do at school shootings.
So he had a “Reflex sight” and a full size gun?
I have heard so many things at this point, this blog post adds to the dung pile of rumors and bs.
I heard first shot at 40, then the rest bracing on one of the three columns, you can see with a simple Google search of the food court for that mall. Looks like a nice brace to support a shooter. I also heard he had a Glock 19 with iron sights.
At some point the security cameras footage will be released. He will probably go on Tucker and some other shows to recount the events, so as to cash in on this. His lawyer will of course get a nice paycheck from this as well.
The only thing I can agree on at this point is that tiny guns are basically compromises of their bigger brothers for various reasons, concealability, weight, size etc. I get it, I want a Glock 42 to carry but when I pull it out it turns into a Glock 17 with a 21 round mag.
Personally I make carry decisions based on grip size first and foremost. I can’t go smaller than a 43x/48, P365X or Shield/Shield Plus with the 8/13 round mag. If my grips sucks from moment one, everything will be impacted, draw, presentation, accuracy, recoil management, follow up shots etc.
I have always agreed with Mas Ayoob that we can’t expect our gun skills to stop at 7 yards.
We don’t set the stage for defensive shooting, we just play our part.
If someone is shooting at you in the Walmart parking lot, are you going to move up to 7 yards before shooting?
And it’s easy to say “I’ll just run away” if it’s more than a few yards. They may still be shooting while you hoof it away.
I practice shooting at 10-15 yards frequently but always fire at 25-30 yards to keep up th skills.
My main carry is an LCP Max and I can hit a silhouette reasonably well at 25 yards. While the LCP Max sight are good, they are also wide. It was actually easier to hit at distance with my 2nd generation LCP that had narrower sights.
If I was most concerned with distance defense, I would go back to K frame Smith with target sights. Much easier to hit at distance with a good revolver for me.
Good on you – I can’t hit shit with the micros so I carry a “compact” sized pistol – usually a G19 or P01, usually with an optic.
K frames are insanely good pistols; 3″ is the Glock 19 of revolvers.
One of the things I don’t think is being talked about enough is the fact that the goblin in this case tried to retreat back into the men’s toilet when he was hit – which was empty. Eli stayed on him and manage to drop him before he could hole up in that dead end with no other victims in it.
But what if Eli hadn’t succeeded in stopping the goblin’s retreat? Goblin is now holed up in there, wounded. Would that have been such a bad outcome?
I would say “no”.
At that point the goblin isn’t shooting. Carnage stops.
Downside is, cops will come in and take over the standoff. They might hesitate to evacuate the wounded, at least professionally. Good regular folks might have to volunteer to drag the wounded to safety.
James Yeager made this point years ago in a series of videos YouTube unfortunately took down: when confronted, mass shooters tend to hole up, stop shooting and either get captured or kill themselves. He cites a Seattle case where the good guy shooter seriously failed by not firing immediately, trying for a capture without shooting. He suffered permanent lower body paralysis as a sad result.
But it wasn’t in vain as that was the goblin’s last assault on anybody except himself.
Yeager’s hypothesis is that once confronted, goblins back down. Eli’s success is another data point leading the same way. Don’t know why for sure. I suspect this is about powerless people trying to take back control and two-way gunfire interrupts that narrative maybe?
Anyways. Point being, as long as your backstop looks good, pump lead and hope for any hits – even misses might help.
Get in the fight.
Jim Simpson,
“Point being, as long as your backstop looks good, pump lead and hope for any hits – even misses might help.”
Very much correct!
If the spree-killer starts hearing return gunfire, one of two things will happen:
1) The spree-killer ignores the return gunfire making it exceedingly easy for the defender to place carefully aimed shots on target–or move in closer to enable shots on target.
2) The spree-killer recognizes the return gunfire and begins evasive action. At that point the spree-killer is no longer placing carefully aimed lethal shots at defenseless victims or, more likely, not shooting at victims at all (due to shooting back at the defender, running away to hide, or committing suicide).
Both outcomes reduce the number of casualties and are therefore positive outcomes.
Your goblin option 2 is the worst case scenario and agreed, it’s better than letting the goblin keep targeting victims.
But goblin option 3 seems to be the most popular, or at least a common choice: stop shooting, run from the fight and barricade somewhere, and then it’s a police negotiation issue ending in capture or death.
That’s what Eli’s target tried to do.
There’s got to be security cam video we can see.
Never release the facts. Just let the legend grow. 40 yards is the new 7 yards. If anyone’s going to be afraid, it should be the wannabe terrorists.
quote————Finally, they did discuss equipment. While equipment is no substitute for solid shooting skills, the .380 pocket pistols with 2.7″ barrels and limited real estate for your hands that have become popular with many people carrying concealed aren’t going to perform at 40+ yards the way a larger or full-sized pistol will.———–quote
Dicken only was only successful because the nut case shooter was not wearing body armor as most of them do these days so caliber was and is irrelevant. No pistol caliber would have done any good if the nut case had had body armor on.
He was doubly lucky he was able to connect at such a long range and quad lucky he did not hit any bystanders. A lot of stories are going around now and like most incidents most will eventually be proven exaggerated or outright falsehoods and I still have great doubts he shot at anywhere near 40 yards. If it proves true it was a great luck shot to be able connect under stress at that long a range.
I have done plenty of shooting at our club at a measured 50 yards with various types of pistols and that was not under stress. That is why I take this whole incident with a very large grain of salt. The Far Right is always quick to invent a new “gun slinging hero” and the stories in the past have been found to be greatly exaggerated.
Is that that one thousand member all white gun club you made up to prove all white gun owners are racist? Wait a minute, der fuhrer herr dacian, you’re white. Does that mean you’re a racist?
If it was all luck, it would have been mostly misses.
And I forgot to say that no normal person would have gone back to the scene of such a tragedy so soon or even been allowed by the police to do so and then calmly pace off the distance and then brag about it. This part of the story does not pass the smell test. Its more like a Far Right aggrandizement of their latest gun slinging hero.
And of course by then the body would have been removed and I seriously doubt Dicken would have even been able to pin point where the body had once been. Again none of this story passes the smell test.
The attorney went back to the scene, not Dickens.
Dicken, not “Dickens.” Dang autocorrect.
At least you didn’t say “Dick-Skins”*.
*Letterkenny reference.
None of your stories pass the smell test, herr dacian.
@dacian
“And I forgot to say that no normal person would have gone back to the scene of such a tragedy so soon or even been allowed by the police to do so and then calmly pace off the distance and then brag about it. This part of the story does not pass the smell test. Its more like a Far Right aggrandizement of their latest gun slinging hero.
And of course by then the body would have been removed and I seriously doubt Dicken would have even been able to pin point where the body had once been. Again none of this story passes the smell test.”
You are so full of it.
1. Dicken did not pace off the distance, his lawyer did. Where the body was is easily identifiable, its on surveillance video and the lawyer and Dicken would have access to that at one point and there are public available pics that show the location. Yes, they would have been able to ‘pin point’ where the body was.
2. A lawyer investigating his clients case would have access to view and walk the crime scene in Indianna, with police present if it was still a crime scene.
Indeed, the distance is very important here, people don’t realize how important. I’ve had several self-defense DGU incidents, and a question always asked when its not real close is ‘how far away was the…” when you fired. It would be insane not to investigate the distance.
I believe I can point out one fact that no one has latched onto. Dicken didn’t have a nice open range between himself and the shooter. A couple of articles I’ve read mentioned that Elija was motioning and waving to people to get behind him, to leave the area, as he advanced on the crazy.
Whatever you have imagined the scene looked, you must populate that scene with frightened bystanders milling about, between you and the target. It wasn’t a matter of walking up to the table at a shooting range, and calmly, but rapidly, doing a mag dump. He ran the risk of killing an innocent if he screwed up.
I called it. All those short barrel 380 guns people have been buying in the millions. They aren’t going to make any 40 yard shots. I’m still going to carry my 21a pocket gun. When I have to. But on my days off it’s a full size 17 round Ruger P-89. With a lasar grip. And I have a 57 yard indoor range in Nashville to practice at.
I look forward to reading the full police report.
“When asked about all this, Relford said, “There will be repercussions.” People who spread that lie about Dicken on TV and on social media (including Shannon Watts) engaged in “defamation per se”, so they’re probably going to need to pay up once those lawsuits go out.”
Not gonna happen. Not gonna argue this point but anyone who thinks that Shannon Watts or the rest of the crowd are gonna “pay up” for this is delusional when it comes to the legal system
They might put out a tweet correction, if that’s what we want to call “reprecussions.” Might.
I’m really curious where Mr Dicken acquired his firearm proficiency skills. Nobody just wakes up one morning an expert shot like that. He might really consider opening his own firearm training safety center. The man saved many lives that day.
according to his lawyer in interview > https://youtu.be/J7H8FIDMRPQ > basically; Dicken did not have any formal training, he was taught how to shoot by his grandfather, and he did a lot of practice.
Off topic :
I just tested Winchester PDX1 -410- Defender. In an open choke 18.5 barrel they did not meat my criteria as an adequate round. I get much better performance with 3 inch 00Buck. YMMV shoot less paper and more other things , you’ll see. PDX1 is hype.
Greenwood Mall hero’s girlfriend speaks out about food court shooting rampage
https://www.953mnc.com/2022/08/01/greenwood-mall-heros-girlfriend-speaks-out-about-food-court-shooting-rampage/
Armed bystander honored with congressional tribute for stopping Indiana mall shooter
https://www.wltx.com/article/news/special-reports/eli-dicken-honored-with-congressional-tribute-for-stopping-greenwood-park-mall-shooter-indiana-indianapolis-constitutional-carry-todd-young/531-96cbf6cb-ec0d-4c5b-b1c2-c01a2ca8ba4d
Talking With Eli Dicken’s Attorney | Gun Talk Radio
https://youtu.be/J7H8FIDMRPQ
I wonder how the democrats in congress will react to the introduction of this congressional tribute on the floor.
Not every defensive gun use turns out so well.
I wonder if this brave armed citizen will receive a congressional tribute as well:
“9-year-old girl who was shot by robbery victim has died, Houston police say
“The shooting suspect first shot at the robbery suspect, who was fleeing on foot, and then at a pickup truck he thought the robbery suspect had gotten into,” police said.
Feb. 15, 2022, 3:59 PM EST
By Tim Fitzsimons and Dennis Romero
A 9-year-old girl has died after she was struck by a bullet fired by a man who had just been been robbed, Houston police said Tuesday.
She is the second 9-year-old girl to be shot in the city within a week.”
Of course this is Texas, so even though the shooter recklessly fired at a pickup truck that was not involved and killed a completely innocent nine-year-old girl, the DA did not prosecute him for any offense.
Spray and pray, it’s the Texas way.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna16343
@Miner49er
“Not every defensive gun use turns out so well.”
That’s right, about 2% don’t turn out as well as Dicken did. Defenders actually fire less than 5% of the time, most DGU gets to the warning or brandishing stage and the bad guy runs away before the defender pulling the trigger is needed.
Nationwide, since 1 Jan 2022, ordinary armed citizens (not armed security or law enforcement) stopped ~ 9,000 robberies of convenience stores, criminals violent and armed with a weapon of some type, and repelled the robber by brandishing and the criminal ran off.
However, over 2,000,000 annually are seriously injured in car accidents (not killed during the accident) and 100% of the time it did not turn out well at all.
Store Clerk Shoots Man After Being Attacked With Knife
https://concealednation.org/2022/08/store-clerk-shoots-man-after-being-attacked-with-knife/
Sadly, this is pretty normal in the U.S. . ~1,300 victims daily in the U.S. are attacked by violent criminals who use knives for the attack – over 470,000 victims annually. 75% of the victims are not armed and are seriously injured or killed (later death after the attack), 18% of the victims are armed and are not seriously injured or killed (sometimes there are minor injuries), 2% of the victims are armed and are seriously injured or killed, 3% of the victims are not armed and are killed immediately, 2% of the victims are not armed but the criminal does not proceed with the attack for some reason. Its extremely rare for knife attacks to make the news.
annually, nationwide, there are over 52,000 victims of knife (or other sharpened edged or pointed weapons) attacks in school buildings or on school grounds. There are hundreds of serious injuries and deaths as a result. Less than 0.2% make the news and when it does make the news its local news, less then 1% involve police – this is because the schools try to handle it as a ‘mental health’ crisis and keep it quiet and don’t call the police.
Over 90% of these violent knife crimes criminals are never identified or arrested. A police report is generated but it doesn’t go into stats because there is no identity of the suspect to put on the report. These go into the ‘cold case’ files where they are never solved and the criminal is never caught or identified.
Annually, nationwide during school hours on school grounds, there are over 38,000 teachers or staff or students violently sexually assaulted by use of hands and fists or blunt objects use by perpetrators. Less than 0.6% are reported to police. Less than 0.2% make the news and when it does make the news its local news.
Annually, nationwide during school hours on school grounds, there are over 30,000 violent assaults (not sexual assault) on students, teachers, and school staff by use of hands and fists or blunt objects use by perpetrators. Less than 0.4% are reported to police. Less than 0.2% make the news and when it does make the news its local news.
Today, nationwide there will be:
* Over 5,500 victims put at risk (collectively) of serious injury or death due to car accidents.
* ~1,300 victims put at risk of serious injury or death by violent criminal use of a knife in attacking them.
* over 1,200 adult victims put at risk of serious injury or death by violent criminal sexual assault on them using hands and fists.
* over 3,000 victims put at risk of serious injury or death by violent criminal ‘domestic abuse’.
* ~2,300 put at risk of serious injury or death by use of prescribed medication used according to doctors instructions because the doctor pushed a medication on them that is not suitable for their condition for them because the doctor was getting kick backs from a drug company.
* Over 4,000 victims put at risk of serious injury or death by violent criminal attackers using blunt objects in attacking the victims.
* over 1,500 victim children under the age of 12 put at risk of serious injury or death by being criminally violently sexually assaulted by use of hands and fists. Another over 1,000 between the ages of 12 and 15 put at risk of serious injury or death by being criminally violently sexually assaulted by use of hands and fists. Another over 1,500 between the ages of 15 and 21 put at risk of serious injury or death by being criminally violently sexually assaulted due to being drugged.
* over 2,400 victims put at risk of serious injury or death due to drug overdose suicide attempts because they could not get the mental health treatment they needed.
* over 1,000 victims put at risk of serious injury or death due to tobacco use.
* over 5,000 victims put at risk of serious injury or death due to alcohol beverage use.
* over 6,000 victims put at risk of serious injury or death due to use of marijuana.
* over 9,000 victims put at risk of serious injury or death due to use of non-firearm defective products the manufacturer knew were defective.
The list goes on and on of all the ways and victims that today, and every day, will be put at risk of serious injury or death. Over 10,000,000 victims per year put at risk of serious injury or death, and firearms or any type are involved in criminal use in less than 0.5 % of those.
That doesn’t sound like a defensive gun use. That report says he intentionally fired at that vehicle after shooting at a fleeing suspect.
It wasn’t a true DGU. Miner doesn’t know the difference.
He knows the difference. He’s a minion of the corporate billionaires that converted the left to Fascism.
He knows the game he’s being paid to play.
“It wasn’t a true DGU. Miner doesn’t know the difference.“
So you don’t think being attacked by a robber at an ATM and then shooting at him is a defensive gun use?
Fascinating!
The prosecutors in Texas thought it was a defensive gun use, that’s why the shooter will face no criminal consequences whatsoever.
Another victory for ‘history and tradition’, please ignore the dead little girl, she’s just collateral damage, nothing to see here, move on.
Also see: OJ is found not guilty and it wouldn’t be reasonable to prosecute Hillary despite her flagrantly breaking the law and destroying the evidence. Books can be written on injustices.
The linked article says the person being robbed specifically aimed at the vehicle because he thought they were with the robber. It also said he was shooting the robber as he was fleeing. Point me to the article on TTAG that recommends doing that as a defensive gun use.
@Miner49’er
“So you don’t think being attacked by a robber at an ATM and then shooting at him is a defensive gun use?”
I didn’t say that.
I said, in reference to you “It wasn’t a true DGU. Miner doesn’t know the difference.“ in context with Dude’s post that “report says he intentionally fired at that vehicle after shooting at a fleeing suspect.” – intentionally firing at “that vehicle” wasn’t “a true DGU”.
Now with your current post you substantiated that I was correct in reference to you that, as I posted, “It wasn’t a true DGU. Miner doesn’t know the difference.“.
Learn what context means and stop reading everything with confirmation bias.
Your obfuscation is mildly entertaining.
Sorry, but the situation is that the robber accosted the shooter, shooter pulled out the gun, started shooting, robber fled as shooter continued shooting.
No matter where the bullets landed, the shooter intended to shoot the robber in order to stop the robbery.
The shooter’s continued gunshots from the moment the incident began until he stopped shooting was indeed, a defensive gun use.
So you’re saying that the Texas prosecutors got it wrong, this was not a defensive gun use?
One would think the Texas prosecutors saw the full evidence, of what evidence are you in possession of that indicates this was not a defensive gun use?
Please explain why the prosecutors with decades of criminal prosecutions and education regarding violent crime, viewed this as a defensive gun use.
Oh legal scholar, please enlighten us and the Texas prosecutors so they may indeed prosecute the law fairly and accurately, we are all waiting.
DICKINS DRILL?? Are you bloody delusional the guy had NO drill what he had was a lucky shot or two I don’t blame him for capitalising on his actions if there are enough raving idiots out bthere to pay him and apparentlyn thre are. But what would concern me is that we might well gte a whole rafdtt of fools who think the are a DICKINS who will kost proably end up creating a whole lot of collateral damage.
On second thought’s, given the ineptness of the average hand gun user, America will certainly end up with a whole load of wannabe DICKINS doing a lot of collateral damage
@Albert LJ Hall
“America will certainly end up with a whole load of wannabe DICKINS doing a lot of collateral damage”
How odd since ~40% of the American law abiding population owning/possessing guns have not done it, nor has there been the anti-gun touted “rivers of blood in the streets” from these.
All miner and dacian/hall are saying is do not even try to defend yourself. Be a helpless victim and die to advance the Fascists narrative.
“All miner and dacian/hall are saying is do not even try to defend yourself“
Incorrect.
My position is the same, while I believe that adult, non-felon citizens certainly should have the right to carry firearms in public spaces, they need to undergo both classroom and live fire training and demonstrate proficiency with their weapon before being allowed into public spaces.
Of course, the propagandists on this list attempt to portray every liberal as some sort of gun hating rabid actor, when the reality is that many of us liberals agree with the second amendment, including ‘well-regulated’ following the constitution’s direction of Congress prescribing the discipline for the militia, both organized and an organized.
So what you’re saying is that you support poll taxes and literacy tests, miner. You’re ok with throwing road blocks on the exercise of civil liberties.
As for the testing and training. How will that affect the poor and disenfranchised? I seem to recall your side screaming that the poor were being abused by requiring id to vote. How will layers of testing and training and live fire treat the poor?
he made 8 out of 10 shots with his initial shot at 40 yards.
These are facts we know so far.
As usual, you’re proving yourself a moron Albert. A “lucky shot or two” would have resulted in a hole or two in the shooter, and 8 holes in the wall behind the shooter, scattered all over.
In point of fact, Dickens got 8 hits out of 10. Yeah, maybe Dicken was a little lucky. Maybe on normal days of shooting, he would only have made 5 hits, and he got lucky when it counted. But if he routinely makes 50% to 80% of shots at that range, he is SKILLED.
Moron.
Capitalizing on the incident? You have citations? Let me point out, idiot, Dicken has not been interviewed for television, or any such a thing. He’s not on Youtube, running at the mouth. I can tell you though, that his lawyer is looking into filing defamation charges against some of the mainstream media. All of those idiots who have claimed that Dicken broke the law by carrying? Defamation per se. I smell money draining from the cesspool of Mainstream Media!!
Because we don’t lock up crazy people. And we don’t force them into treatment. So they will not cause trouble to innocent people. These crazy people now have access to rifles. And these mass shootings are being conducted with rifles. Not handguns with “standard-capacity” magazines.
So those of you who have the resources? I highly suggest you add shooting at long ranges to your training regiment. Shoot out to 25 yd. Which is the maximum range of most indoor gun ranges built today. Start with just 5 rounds.
I read that the very first victim of this mass shooter was also carrying a concealed weapon and had a permit to do so. This first victim was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He never had a chance to react and died as a result. Eli Dickens happened to be in the right place at the right time and acted bravely. No one will ever know how many lives he saved that day and the mainstream media will make sure that he is quickly forgotten because what he did doesn’t fit their gun control narrative.
Eli Dicken’s Girlfriend, Shay Golden, Shares Details From Mall Shooting
https://concealednation.org/2022/08/eli-dickens-girlfriend-shay-golden-shares-details-from-mall-shooting/
Nobody has answered the most basic question yet, WHICH 9mm Glock was he carrying?
I have read reports that assert that, once the shooting had stopped, the girlfriend, Shay Goldman (a student nurse) provided first aid to those shot. (https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/19/us/eli-dicken-indiana-mall-shooting-bystander/index.html)
My take home point, is attempt to be certain that my first aid/emergency care skills are up to snuff. I carry two tourniquets on my person all the time, everywhere. Perhaps it is an occupational hazard, being an ex paramedic.
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